About shotguns... honestly.

[MiggyE]

I would consider a shotgun viable for home defense if I didnt have to comply with a 18.5" barrel law. Cut that in half then we can discuss a shotgun for home defense.

fortunately, the law here is lax on how long a barrel should be well, i guess they should be lax, as officially only long arms allowed for sale to civilians from gun stores here is restricted to 22LR and 12 gauge.

only LE and Military are allowed to buy any other calibers. but then of course, there's no law prohibiting these guys from selling their guns second hand to everybody else..... and, if you have a gun club certificate, you could get ARs for 3-gun competitions

[lanceriley]

Id go for my pistol... and fight my way to my shotgun.

the Ar in my opinion would come out when there is a direct threat. 4-5 people banging on your gate. but for bump in the night. shotgun will do.

[DocGKR]

I'll just repeat what I said in the last shotgun thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=23296

As many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.

From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Below are the wound profiles comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:



Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…

In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice. However, if there are multiple criminals assaulting me or in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun.

Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 Garand, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.

[Saginaw79]

I would consider a shotgun viable for home defense if I didnt have to comply with a 18.5" barrel law. Cut that in half then we can discuss a shotgun for home defense.

Yeah, on my to get list is an SBRd Shotgun, A 14" scattergun is perfect IMO

[MiggyE]

thanks docGKR for the visuals now boys and girls, you know that you should be kind to Mr. Shotgun....

[sff70]

Regarding the "rack" sound of a shotgun, or the visual appearance of a SG as a deterrent . . .

Realistically, most SG users store the shotgun in Cond 3 and will make it Cond 1 promptly upon retrieving the SG.

After all, confronting a threat with a empty chamber is a bad idea.

So, if the "rack" occurs out of the presence (or hearing range) of the threat, there is no audible deterrent effect.

Further, in a low light scenario, what is the likelihood the threat can see that you have a SG, and thus be visually deterred?

FWIW, in many non-low light situations when I have used a M4 type carbine vs situations when I have used a SG, the M4 produces many more fear driven comments from both onlookers and bad guys than the SG has, leading me to strongly believe that the visual deterrent of the M4 is much more than the SG.

And lastly, I recently put an experienced, though average skill level co-worker (LEO) through two moderate stress scenarios in full light, involving a suprise scenario (active shooter response), first using a M16A1 (converted to semi only) , and then after re-arranging the targets, a bead sighted 870.

Care was taken to keep the targets at a similar level of difficulty.

I would argue that the stress level was higher in the first scenario (employing the rifle), as in the 2d scenario, the student had a very good idea of what to expect.

This student is a full time LEO and has about 5 yrs experience with the 870, and about 2 yrs experience with the M16/AR15 system. In addition to basic user level courses with both, he's completed annual refresher training with both. This person particularly likes the 870 and considers himself good with it. He has the option to carry both long guns.

Rifle ammo was 55 grn ball. Shotgun ammo was Hornady Low-Recoil 1 oz slugs.

4 threat targets, 4 non threat targets (IPSC cardboard). Ranges varied from 20 yds to 5 yds.

The non-threats were in close proximity to the threats.

Results with the rifle: 1 nonthreat target hit (he fired very quickly at 20 yds, at angle). All threat targets neutralized with multiple good hits each (A, B, D zone).

Results with SG: all 4 nonthreat targets hit. Misses and peripheral hits on the threat targets.

As this 870 holds only 6 rounds in the magazine, the shooter of course ran dry. He chose to reload the SG rather than transition to the HG, and while attempting to reload the SG from the side saddle, dropped several slugs on the ground. Further, reloading the SG (due to the dropped slugs, and fine motor skills degredation in general) took a long time and exposed him to potentially getting shot by the threat(s).

(in prior such training, I've seen students load slugs or buck into the ejection port and the magazine backwards, which renders the SG inoperable until I can take it apart to get the backwards catrdidge out of the magazine. Students will also induce stoppages by short-stroking the SG)

In an active shooter situation like VA Tech, on average, every 3 seconds an additional victim is shot. Time matters.

Note that I didn't provide him with a low light scenario. Working a shotgun with a handheld light is of course much more difficult than a rifle with a handheld light (yes, mounted lights are preferred, but are not always the reality).

As a result of his recent experience, this student has decided to use the rifle as his only long gun.

YMMV

[El Cid]

I'll just repeat what I said in the last shotgun thread:

Doc, thanks for your always informative posts. I am curious about the shotgun visual. Why is there no temporary cavity? I would have thought each pellet would create its own.

Kevin

FWIW, in many non-low light situations when I have used a M4 type carbine vs situations when I have used a SG, the M4 produces many more fear driven comments from both onlookers and bad guys than the SG has, leading me to strongly believe that the visual deterrent of the M4 is much more than the SG.

I've noticed that the M-4 and MP-5 get the same response from badguys that the SG does, but like you said, responses will vary wherever you go. On a funny note, we arrested a fugitive a few weeks back at night. He later told us he didn't have any idea there was an M-4 pointed at him. Seems the X-300 did its job quite well. He might also have been distracted by the large bite dog straining its leash nearby.

[sff70]

"He might also have been distracted by the large bite dog straining its leash nearby"


That usually gets the point across in a way even a mope can understand.

[dbrowne1]

DocGKR has very eloquently described the philosophy that I follow. The only problem I see is that in many scenarios, one doesn't know how many and what type of adversary they will face. If I am pretty confident that I'm only facing one or two amateur garden variety shitbags breaking into my house, the 870 is probably what I'd want. If it's an unknown threat, unknown number situation, the carbine might be a better choice.

[ColdDeadHands]

I like shotguns and always will own at least one.
Don't forget about the Zombies, as proven in resident evil and other zombie movies, a shotgun is the best tool to kill them by blowing of their head.