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Thread: Rejection Rates for tested tier 1 AR15 parts

  1. #31
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    Didn't Pass Military Spec



    Most companies if the flaw is rectifiable, will try to re-work the part, as 5min more machine time is more efficient that then X more time to manufacure a new one. However for parts that cannot be fixed (ie. flaws in metal) they are scrapped, and sold as bulk type metal.
    Last edited by KevinB; 07-21-09 at 09:05.
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  2. #32
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    Just out of curiosity, if parts are batch tested, how likely is it that the test part will differ from the batch? In AR parts, is it that if one part is bad, the whole batch is bad usually?

    I guess what I'm aksing is that with AR parts, does one bad apple mean the bunc his bad, and if one apple is good does that mean there are no bad apples?

    Been a long time since Stats and running SPC data, but batch testing is more about process control, but indivual testing is more of a guarantee?
    Last edited by FromMyColdDeadHand; 07-21-09 at 09:30.
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  3. #33
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    We individually test our parts, so I cannot claim to be definitive on batches.

    However with CNC machinery, the run down on that machine or fixture part of that machine is likley to be all bad, due to program error, or fixture placement arror. Potentially a tool may wear or break, and some of the run is okay and some not.

    If we are talking about Bolts, barrel and carriers, there are so many variables, that batch testing is not a reliable method, unless a large percentage of the run is bad. It really all comes down to stats, and if you batch test, the batch needs to be pretty large.
    Kevin S. Boland
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  4. #34
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    tyler,

    You are putting way too much thinking into this in my opinion. Here it is in Neanderthal terms. One need only look at the percentage of AR's from manufacturer XYZ that routinely take a crap and the ones from manufacturer ZYX that don't.

    In other words if someone had told me that Bushmaster was crap based on their name alone I wouldn't have believed them. But, having worked on them and seeing first hand the issues that they have I don't need to be beat over the head. The same goes with DPMS and Oly.

    The same holds true for Noveske, LMT, or Colt. If they routinely had issues and were breaking down then we have this information to refute claims of "they are better" than. But, it's not the case.

    The common denominator is of course that certain companies actually take the time to build a product correctly and others do not. The ones that don't can't even justify why they cut the corners that they do. Someone made a comment here that Bushmaster sells more AR's than any other manufacturer. That may be true. Now just imagine how many AR's they would sell if they staked the carriers and receiver extensions correctly, used M4 uppers with feedcuts, used the same barrel steel as Colt, BCM, LMT or Daniel Defense, extractor inserts, etc.... At that point people wouldn't have to look hard because the playing field would essentially be even. We also can see that the current price difference is only about 100.00-350.00 in most cases.

    To me that means that company XYZ is more concerned about their profit and not about the product they produce. Now let's look at the parts. Why would any of those aforementioned companies be overly concerned about parts failure or the quality of their parts when they don't even care about the platform that they build? Not to mention all too often (we see it here all the time) someone is asking how to fix their new out of the box DPMSBUSHOLYMODEL1 Ninja gun rather than contacting the manufacturer and making them fix it. If everyone did that they would eventually have to change their ways or they would fall by the wayside.

    DISCLAIMER- If you (general descriptive term) are butt hurt about what I have said too bad. It is what it is.





    Quote Originally Posted by tylerw02 View Post
    Thanks. These questions have plagued me for some time. This would also provide good insight to the comparable quality (or lack there of) of tier two guns relative to top tier.
    Last edited by Iraqgunz; 07-21-09 at 10:10.



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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blob View Post
    By that do you mean companies that properly test their parts like Colt or BCM, or companies that batch test like DPMS and RRA?

    I see where tylerw02 is going with this and I would like to find out myself if for nothing more than to satisfy my curiosity, but on the other hand as long as you buy tested parts what does it matter?
    Both. BCM (for instance) has a ZERO flaw acceptance policy. So if the LAB finds ANY issues with the bolt or barrel, it is rejected.


    C4

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX Solder View Post
    I often wonder what happens to parts that don't pass inspection, but appear cosmetically good.

    Are "fail" parts returned to the manufacturer, thrown in the trash, other?
    Ah, this is a good question and one I have been waiting for.

    So let's pretend that you have a .Mil contract. The Govt has given you the TDP to follow. A Govt inspector comes in and takes measurements on say a bolt. It does not meet the TDP spec, but is 100% serviceable and may actually be a better fit than the bolt following the TDP (which might be on the low end of the spec).

    The manufacturer will then use that part in their LE or Civy AR's (or sell it). Since this part did not meet the .Gov standard, should it be classified as crap? No, not in the least, it just means that it does not meet the blueprint drawing that the Govt is using for that part.

    Now this does not mean that ALL parts that fail a .Gov inspection are still quality. In the case of the bolt though, it does mean that it is still useable.


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 07-21-09 at 10:36.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    tyler,

    You are putting way too much thinking into this in my opinion. Here it is in Neanderthal terms. One need only look at the percentage of AR's from manufacturer XYZ that routinely take a crap and the ones from manufacturer ZYX that don't.

    In other words if someone had told me that Bushmaster was crap based on their name alone I wouldn't have believed them. But, having worked on them and seeing first hand the issues that they have I don't need to be beat over the head. The same goes with DPMS and Oly.

    The same holds true for Noveske, LMT, or Colt. If they routinely had issues and were breaking down then we have this information to refute claims of "they are better" than. But, it's not the case.

    The common denominator is of course that certain companies actually take the time to build a product correctly and others do not. The ones that don't can't even justify why they cut the corners that they do. Someone made a comment here that Bushmaster sells more AR's than any other manufacturer. That may be true. Now just imagine how many AR's they would sell if they staked the carriers and receiver extensions correctly, used M4 uppers with feedcuts, used the same barrel steel as Colt, BCM, LMT or Daniel Defense, extractor inserts, etc.... At that point people wouldn't have to look hard because the playing field would essentially be even. We also can see that the current price difference is only about 100.00-350.00 in most cases.

    To me that means that company XYZ is more concerned about their profit and not about the product they produce. Now let's look at the parts. Why would any of those aforementioned companies be overly concerned about parts failure or the quality of their parts when they don't even care about the platform that they build? Not to mention all too often (we see it here all the time) someone is asking how to fix their new out of the box DPMSBUSHOLYMODEL1 Ninja gun rather than contacting the manufacturer and making them fix it. If everyone did that they would eventually have to change their ways or they would fall by the wayside.

    DISCLAIMER- If you (general descriptive term) are butt hurt about what I have said too bad. It is what it is.

    No, nobody is "butt-hurt" as you put it. I'm looking for answers and it appears not getting too many. Let's break down some of the things you spoke about


    "Now just imagine how many AR's they would sell if they staked the carriers and receiver extensions correctly"

    I agree, they should do this. This is a quick and simple job and should NOT be overlooked. Meanwhile, it shouldn't cost hundreds more for X company to do it, either. Staking an extension can be done in about ten seconds. Staking a carrier can be done in just a few minutes. There is no reason why the junk manufacturers shouldn't do it. These are very critical for the operation; probably much more so than whether or not a bolt is MPI tested---which is precisely why I ask how common it is for a bolt to be rejected. If, for instance 1 in 1,000 units would fail the test, odds are a non-tested part doesn't mean the part wouldn't pass and you have a junk part.


    "used the same barrel steel as Colt, BCM, LMT or Daniel Defense"

    Once again, how common is it that 4140 fails and 4150 or Mil-B-11595E+ would not? Most private citizens are using semi-automatic carbines. Per gotm4's description on this sight there is a "slight" difference. Throats aren't going to last much longer with one or the other it seems. It appears that 4140 is "adequate" for semi-auto use and Mil-B-11595E+ is icing on the cake.


    "extractor inserts, etc."

    It is my understanding blue extractor inserts are for rifles and black are for carbines. Is that assumption correct? Having the wrong extractor isn't a major item to change.


    "Not to mention all too often (we see it here all the time) someone is asking how to fix their new out of the box DPMSBUSHOLYMODEL1 Ninja gun rather than contacting the manufacturer and making them fix it. If everyone did that they would eventually have to change their ways or they would fall by the wayside."

    I don't think we'll ever see the day because most people are tight-wads and care more about putting a China red-dot sight and UTG quad-rail and making the firearm look cool than they are about the details. Most people aren't going to get educated as to what will ensure their firearm continues to run properly.

    I didn't start this thread to compare things like inserts and staking, rather the likelihood a non-tested part would fail. Any bubba with his StaPMSBushStar1 could have his buddy stake his carrier key with his MOACKS, stake the receiver extension, install the proper $4 insert/spring, install the proper $12 buffer, and get his .223 chamber throated-out for 5.56 ammunition and make the over-all carbine much more reliable for a very minimal cost. If those alterations are made, whether or not the manufacturer does it or not--that is irrelevant, what are the odds that the barrel, bold-carrier, or bolt would fail? Just because a part isn't tested, doesn't mean it would fail so rates are pretty important. What are the rejection rates of parts from the top tier?

    This is not a flame or a "just as good as" thread, rather wanting to put some real empirical data with the concept of shot-peen, MPI, and HPT. It appears that isn't going to happen.
    Last edited by tylerw02; 07-21-09 at 11:26.

  8. #38
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    Some time ago, a rep from a lower end manufacturer inadvertently stated that the parts they rejected for their complete guns went to their parts kits. The justification being that parts guns were more likely to be inexpertly assembled and have other problematic components, giving the manufacturer some deniability if problems occurred. My kingdom for a voice recorder on that one.

    There are signs of the same practice in another lower-end manufacturer. Upon information and belief they do maintain a standard, albeit a pretty low one.

    In the Colt AC, Ken Elmore often noted the number of requests Colt would receive from other manufacturers for Colt's rejected parts. There were no surprises.
    Last edited by ST911; 07-21-09 at 11:53.

  9. #39
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    I really love these types of threads. Right next to; what kind of AR should I buy and why?



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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    I really love these types of threads. Right next to; what kind of AR should I buy and why?
    This isn't a "what gun should I buy" rather a "to what degree should I avoid"...I'm looking for concrete data.



    Feel free to contribute if you can answer the questions. If not, why flame?
    Last edited by tylerw02; 07-21-09 at 12:05.

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