KISS rifle Mandatory Upgrades/Mods

[Jay Cunningham]

you can't see your irons at night

I think that I am feeling a theory-to-practice test coming on.

[they]

I'm pretty sure I know whatst I speak of... and have done so in practice...when I joined the Army... we (or at least my unit) didn't have dot sights... and I shot at night...

I don't remember hitting much... and this is when my eyes were fully acclimated to the night (unlike the common civilian WTF middle of the night scenero)...

We can argue about alot, but seeing your iron sights at night aint one...

[Jay Cunningham]

I'm pretty sure I know whatst I speak of... and have done so in practice...when I joined the Army... we (or at least my unit) didn't have dot sights... and I shot at night...

I don't remember hitting much... and this is when my eyes were fully acclimated to the night (unlike the common civilian WTF middle of the night scenero)...

We can argue about alot, but seeing your iron sights at night aint one...

I am not arguing with you. The topic comes up enough that it makes me want to hit the range at dusk with an iron sighted rifle, a rifle with an optic, and a shot timer.

[Treehopr]

I'm pretty sure I know whatst I speak of... and have done so in practice...when I joined the Army... we (or at least my unit) didn't have dot sights... and I shot at night...

I don't remember hitting much... and this is when my eyes were fully acclimated to the night (unlike the common civilian WTF middle of the night scenero)...

We can argue about alot, but seeing your iron sights at night aint one...

If there isn't enough light for you to see your sights then what exactly are you shooting at?

all a KISS rifle REALLY needs, IMO, bare minimum is:

-sling

-tritium front sight

-light

If you have an adequate white light you won't need the tritium front sight.

[C4IGrant]

If there isn't enough light for you to see your sights then what exactly are you shooting at?



If you have an adequate white light you won't need the tritium front sight.

We have seen people attempt this at Vickers low light classes. It did not work out so well. Sometimes they hit the target and sometimes they didn't.

A red dot is really king in low light making it a MUST have on ANY weapon (no matter what "clicky name" it is being called).



C4

[KevinB]

Iron sight useful/uselessness will depend upon the weapon mounted light, distance and shooter movement.

While one CAN see irons from light spillage on mounted lights, I dont think it is a practical or recommended method - as you will need to cast a lot of light for a longer time that desired to pick up the target -> id the target -> pick up the front sight and engage.

I defy anyone to find a most KISS optic than the T1 Aimpoint, as you can leave it on for months/years and it adds next to no size/weight.

I highlighted the pertinent point of Borebrushes post in my mind above -- KISS is all about shortening your OODA loop in order to effective engage and neutralize threats.


I've yet to see a match that mimics combat conditions - and all I get from the majority of the KISS fanatics is they have never been in a gunfight.

My boss Lt.Col. Dave Lutz (USMC ret.) 'coldblue' here, has a KISS carbine -- he has an A1 upper with our URX forend and an Aimpoint mounted on that -- he pointed out to the fact that when Marcus L fell off the mountain in Afghan - the scope broke off his Mk12 Mod1 and he engaged a number of enenmy combatants with his BIS (KAC front and rear - shamless company plug)
However it still has the CCO, a Light and a Sling.

Dave's been in a number of gunfights and while that was back in the day (RVN) he knows the value of KISS - and his ideas for that include what most of us consider the required equipment.

Most people CONUS won't need a Short Dot, a PEQ, etc. but for some missions that is KISS.

My KISS Home Defense gun is a Colt LE6920 with RO921 upper with a fixed front sight and a custom MRE URX, Aimpoint T1, Surefire X200 (in Larue mount) and our Triple Tap brake -- using BlackHills 70gr (flash retardant).

[John_Wayne777]

If you have an adequate white light you won't need the tritium front sight.

...if you're stationary using a good white light with a good shoulder mount of the weapon firing at a stationary target, the irons can indeed be used quite easily.

It becomes significantly more difficult if you are shooting on the move with a less than ideal cheek weld on the weapon as you may be in a CQB type scenario. There are a number of trainers out there who worked as assaulters in Tier 1 units for a number of years...doing CQB at the highest possible level...who regard red dot sights as a mandatory upgrade.

This would be a clue as to their importance and utility in real life.

[rychencop]

Excellent points.

...but, you can't see your irons at night, so without an optic, a tritium front sight is necessary (forget the rear) IMO.

don't need to at close range. give me a decent/medium strength light and i could kill you out to say 50 yards with iron sights all night long. longer ranges, say over 50 yards you will need a high power light anyway just to illuminate your target enough to make a good shot. optic or not. many wars have been fought (successfully) at night without lights or optics attached to weapons. the focus is the KISS concept. start adding all the crap everyone else has on their high speed killing sticks and it's no longer a KISS rifle.

[KevinB]

I would say its KISS to engage as passively as one can - why light up the horizon for no good reason (and many bad).

As someone who's had to aim at muzzleflashes - I can tell you it ain't kiss - and anything than can better that is simpler.

Too many people's KISS is romancing the Retro - and they forget there are many reasons we have moved forward.

[Cameron]

Too many people's KISS is romancing the Retro - and they forget there are many reasons we have moved forward.

You are spot on with that one Kevin.

Cameron