Page 5 of 17 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 163

Thread: KISS rifle Mandatory Upgrades/Mods

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    7,905
    Feedback Score
    9 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by BillCutting View Post
    Right I can only shoot one at a time, but in an emergency situation with others with me that can shoot and know there way around a rifle, it would be good to be able to arm them if needed. Not to mention having at least one backup if first rifle fails.
    In my life I have found that when things are the worst you are usually alone. Of course I am used to working without back up 90% of the time. If you always have others around you can depend on then your argument holds water. Personally I feel that when the stuff hits the fan the only one who is going to save you is you and perhaps a little help from God.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
    Firearms Instructor
    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    SE FL
    Posts
    14,148
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    Funny how everyone takes these things so personally.

    Males always seem to have a problem with a guy that can do everything they can do, sometimes better, with less. The guy that plays with a $500 stick gets just a little more upset when he gets beat by the guy with the house cue. The guy with the $5k set of clubs gets just a little more annoyed when he gets beat by the guy with his grandads old woods. The guy with the Corvette REALLY hates getting beat by that kid with the Civic that he dropped a turbo into.

    One of the best shooters we ever had out at SFDCC shot with a ban-era DPMS with a welded on break, a Trijicon reflex, and the gun otherwise stock. I don't even think the gun was actually his. But he was good enough that whenever he came out it literally became a fight for second place because it was a given he was going to come in first.

    Just because one guy can make do with less, or chooses to make do with less, doesn't diminish someone else's abilities, assuming that those abilities are actually there. What I take issue with is that there appears to have developed this assumption that the proper tactical operator must have a FF rail system and a VFG. Clearly this is not the case.

    Then there's an issue of cost. If you're in a position not to have to choose one vs. the other then more power to you, but let's look at the math.
    $340 DD Lite Rail 9.0
    $63 Tango Down Stubby VFG
    $40 enough XTM and ladder covers to wrap the rail
    $450+ TOTAL with shipping, tax, install, whatever.

    Guess how much Randy Cain's 3-day Carbine 1 tuition is? That's right, $450. Again, if you can afford to do both then by all means do so, but a lot of guys can't and for those that can't they'll get WAY more out of 3 days with Randy than with any rail and VFG.

    I do think that a lot of guys, especially those that consider themselves experienced and that they "know" what they need, would be well served with getting back to basics. Pick yourself up a BCM upper and throw some Cavarms handguards on it and see if you really do miss that rail and VFG. Test your theories. Challenge your perceptions. I bet you won't miss them one bit. Until maybe it comes time to post pictures on the internet. I admit my poor BCM is pretty boring and not much to look at.

    The "KISS" concept, for me, is about evaluating each piece of equipment and the carbine as a whole and determining really and truly "do I need that?" and asking yourself honestly "what is that doing for me?" If you have an operational need for attaching lights, lasers, sound emitters, etc. to the gun then yes you probably need a rail system. Depending on your use of things like a suppressor and/or a switchblock you may find a rail system necessary or simply advantageous. But with the cost of these things, and with better ways to spend an equal amount of money, I think that most people should carefully evaluate whether or not they need them, and should Go Shoot the Gun for at least an equal cost in ammo before they jump into making the gun heavier, more expensive, and potentially more complex when they don't really need to.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    SE FL
    Posts
    14,148
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by BillCutting View Post
    Right I can only shoot one at a time, but in an emergency situation with others with me that can shoot and know there way around a rifle, it would be good to be able to arm them if needed. Not to mention having at least one backup if first rifle fails.
    This would be my reason, and not out of any grandiose fantasies about running back to the safe to re-arm myself or being able to arm the neighbors in a catastrophe, but I simply find it better to have a spare complete gun (especially at matches, classes, and other shooting events) without all the bells and whistles than to have a single wundergun.

    To use the example that appears elsewhere in this thread, I'd take two of my BCM carbines over a single KAC SR15 with Short Dot.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    104
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    The "KISS" concept, for me, is about evaluating each piece of equipment and the carbine as a whole and determining really and truly "do I need that?" and asking yourself honestly "what is that doing for me?"
    The PRACTICAL KISS concept. I think you hit the crux of the matter perfectly.

    In my case, I started with a stock 6920, and my wife has a stock BM. I wanted to add optics, so I ditched the handle. I added the M4s sight, because of the durability, battery availability, and I like the larger sight over the T1. I'm a bigger guy, so the weight is less a factor than it would be for my wife, who's less than half my size. In her case, we're evaluating the T1, as it may well be the better option. I did add the "extravagant luxury" of a BOBRO mount, but I like the QD and lower drag offered by that upgrade. I didn't care for the standard handrail, so I swapped it out for a MOE. My wife doesn't care for the MOE, but did like the larger ones from the Colt over the stock BM ones, so we put them there for her. I added a TROY BUIS to round out my sights. The BM still retains its carry handle. I don't care for the grip, so will be finding the optimal MIAD combo. If it turns out to be the same as the MOE, I'll go that route for future builds. She can evaluate different options to fit her preference, too... she doesn't dislike the factory grip on the BM, but finds the one from the 6920 slightly better. We'll put on what works best for her. I don't like the stock, but don't want to over-complicate. I'll be swapping out for a CTR. I have access to a MOE stock on another guy's rifle, but wanted to evaluate the difference myself. Depending on the difference that makes, we'll make a decision whether she wants to upgrade her stock. I'll be fabricating my own hand stop. I'd like to add a light, probably the X300. There will be a sling in the future - would like an MS2/ASAP, but since the damned things seem to be legend, I may go ahead and design/build something similar, at least until they are available again.

    All of our upgrades are relatively minimalistic, and based on ergonomic and functional rather than tacticool. Do I like the look of these long, quad-railed beasts with all the whistles and bells? Yeah, I honestly do. Functionally, practically, for me, it's expensive overkill. Maybe on a future build, I'll go nuts with all the toys...

    Oh... I did also pick up a redi-mag, which I did some rather drastic surgery to - now similar to a redi-mod. While I like it, I did jump the gun on it. I need to work with the rifle without worrying about it more first. I'm not taking it off... just didn't need to add it at this point.


    So I suppose I should go back and ask myself the question - did these upgrades make my rifle better for me? M4s - hell yeah. TROY BUIS? Love the flat-top better than the carry handle, so yeah. MOE handguard? Meh... don't know that I shoot better either way, though I do much prefer the feel. Grip and stock should be here Monday, and I expect customization of both will help lock and index the rifle better. Add a light and maybe a handstop, and, of course, the sling, and I'm done - the build will probably be just that way indefinitely.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    SE FL
    Posts
    14,148
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    good post meisterhau.

    Something I think is missing a lot in reviews of things both online and in print is "proof of concept". The_katar is great at posts like that because he states what he was hoping to accomplish with a piece of equipment or a gun, tests it out, and reports back as to how it all worked out for him. The thread on the 5.45x39 uppers is a great example of this.

    Establishing the need (or the want) and buying the gear is only half the story, and frankly it's the boring half. How the gear works out for you and the analysis of the results are far more useful and interesting, to include revisiting the initial concept.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Littleton, CO
    Posts
    3,921
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    Hence my recommendation for a front night sight (tritium.) Not as good as an optic but good for low light engagements out to 25 yards. I love optics and would not have a patrol rifle without one. I am just saying that if your buget does not allow you can have an effective rifle with irons (night sight) and a white light. Of course you being in the military places much more of a need on the ability to shoot past CQB ranges. I am talking more for LEO's and regular folks defending their house from a burglar.


    Pat
    Sure, I agree with you. Of any of the "mandatory upgrades" I think a white light is the only really mandatory thing so you don't have this happen.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3,714
    Feedback Score
    4 (100%)
    to me (what little I know), KISS is about simplicity. I don't want to be adding any additional systems, that need to be installed, adjusted, or can possibly fail and impact the operation of the weapon system. a sling, a light, and RDS with BUIS can be considered necessary basics.

    IMO, the demarc line for a KISS carbine is a rail. rails add complexity, weight, and cost. and with all that empty real estate, they make it almost compulsory to find shit to hang off it. or if not, you need rail covers.

    I don't need forward optics or the hanger downer thingie to shoot the gun. I like fixed BUIS. I can hang a white light on handguards. anything else is gravy...
    never push a wrench...

  8. #48
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    VA/OH
    Posts
    29,630
    Feedback Score
    33 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by ra2bach View Post
    to me (what little I know), KISS is about simplicity. I don't want to be adding any additional systems, that need to be installed, adjusted, or can possibly fail and impact the operation of the weapon system. a sling, a light, and RDS with BUIS can be considered necessary basics.

    IMO, the demarc line for a KISS carbine is a rail. rails add complexity, weight, and cost. and with all that empty real estate, they make it almost compulsory to find shit to hang off it. or if not, you need rail covers.

    I don't need forward optics or the hanger downer thingie to shoot the gun. I like fixed BUIS. I can hang a white light on handguards. anything else is gravy...

    If we are talking about a KISS that would be used for a defensive purpose, then an optic and a flashlight should REALLY be viewed as mandatory on a KISS (defensive weapon).

    Why is this you ask? Simple. You cannot see in the dark.

    Anyone ever take a "kiss" AR to a night fighting course (no optic or flashlight)? If you have not, would suggest doing so before recommending that they are a good idea as a defensive tool.

    Saw a guy bring this very setup to a class once. Not only could he not hit the target, but often times could not even find it. When he did find it, he was slow on target (too slow). This is a no go in my book.



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 07-24-09 at 12:07.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    2,419
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Anyone ever take a "kiss" AR to a night fighting course (no optic or flashlight)? If you have not, would suggest doing so before recommending that they are a good idea as a defensive tool.

    Saw a guy bring this very setup to a class once. Not only could he not hit the target, but often times could not even find it. When he did find it, he was slow on target (too slow). This is a no go in my book.

    C4
    This is totally understandable, and more common sense then anything. Especially considering that my gun has no flash hider because of the State I live in, so if I do fire it at night I probably should just curl into the fetal position after every shot and wait for my eyes to start working again...

    My thing is that I see absolutely no point what-so-ever in me buying a rail system (other then the look cool factor, which I refuse to fall into) purely to mount a light. That is why I'm leaning towards the Magpul MOE.

    Also to get back to Rob's points (things I agree with completely), I was talking to a local deputy who is also an ex marine the other night about this very concept. He runs a standard M4 with a carry handle as his patrol rifle because he is comfortable with it. He's trained, I'm not. I made the comment when talking about all the knick knacks available that I consider everyone of them to be 300 (or whatever number) dollars against me learning the weapon, because with my budget I wouldn't be able to buy that amount of practice ammo. He just laughed, and said he couldn't wait to bring that up to his department! As of today I have spent enough in practice ammo to have purchased a Troy rail system, a red dot scope with mount, and a foregrip.
    Last edited by Mac5.56; 07-24-09 at 12:27.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    6,028
    Feedback Score
    13 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by ra2bach View Post
    IMO, the demarc line for a KISS carbine is a rail. rails add complexity, weight, and cost. and with all that empty real estate, they make it almost compulsory to find shit to hang off it. or if not, you need rail covers.
    How does this make any sense? A rail just sits there benign - it's the simplest thing in the world. I cannot understand this line of thinking. Tell me you don't want a rail system, okay that's fine. Tell me that they add complexity and weight?

    They add no complexity and sometimes railed HG's are lighter than the standard ones they replace.

Page 5 of 17 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •