KISS rifle Mandatory Upgrades/Mods

[ra2bach]

If we are talking about a KISS that would be used for a defensive purpose, then an optic and a flashlight should REALLY be viewed as mandatory on a KISS (defensive weapon).

Why is this you ask? Simple. You cannot see in the dark.

Anyone ever take a "kiss" AR to a night fighting course (no optic or flashlight)? If you have not, would suggest doing so before recommending that they are a good idea as a defensive tool.

Saw a guy bring this very setup to a class once. Not only could he not hit the target, but often times could not even find it. When he did find it, he was slow on target (too slow). This is a no go in my book.



C4

sorry. I probably should have said, "a sling, a light, and RDS with BUIS should be considered necessary basics", instead of, "can be considered necessary basics."

IOW, I agree w/ everything you've said...

[ra2bach]

How does this make any sense? A rail just sits there benign - it's the simplest thing in the world. I cannot understand this line of thinking. Tell me you don't want a rail system, okay that's fine. Tell me that they add complexity and weight?

They add no complexity and sometimes railed HG's are lighter than the standard ones they replace.

well, maybe so. but it's certainly not in keeping with the KISS concept. 'keep it simple' is pretty easy to understand.

why go to the trouble or spend the money to add a quad rail if you're not going to mount anything to it???

[ra2bach]

...I think you may be right in what the OP was alluding to, but that still doesn't support the argument that rails "add complexity." In fact, in most case, they make adding accesories... simpler.

this is it right here - KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) means NOT adding accessories beyond a light, sling, RDS.

you don't need a rail for any of that...

[decodeddiesel]

Alright this thread is running ad-naseum.

I think Cameron is onto something with his "Budget Carbine" as opposed to K.I.S.S.

If all you can afford is a simple carbine (or shotgun, or Glock) with a simple light attached by whatever means, and a tritium front sight, then rock on.

KISS is so often used to justify a substandard weapon, lack of necessary components, training, etc. in some type of romanticized image of what a "rifleman" should be. In that context it's ridiculous.

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[hossb7]

my current go-to rifle (minus M600C which I just got):



my 2nd AR build:




I plan on getting a Micro T1 for my 2nd AR as well as another set of Troy MRF-DI rails, a VFG and sling, then it will be my "go-to". To me it is the perfect KISS: VFG for control, sling, a quality optic and a solid white light.

Like KevinB said (in so many words), what is KISS to each individual greatly varies.

[Cameron]

I think Cameron is onto something with his "Budget Carbine" as opposed to K.I.S.S.

If all you can afford is a simple carbine (or shotgun, or Glock) with a simple light attached by whatever means, and a tritium front sight, then rock on.

KISS is so often used to justify a substandard weapon, lack of necessary components, training, etc. in some type of romanticized image of what a "rifleman" should be. In that context it's ridiculous.

That's right.

[apache64]

Hi Rob,

How did you mount the Surefire to the handguards? I was told that I can drill through the stock handguards and mount a mini-rail. I would like some advice before I break something. I will be adding a true rail system down the road.

Thank you.

[Mac5.56]

Wow did I touch on a sore subject or what? Damn!

My entire point of this thread was to address the issue of a simple carbine that is not "cheap, or justifiably substandard" as decodediesel puts it, but rather that is capable of high peformance, and reliability with the least amount of add ons as possible.

It seems that this is almost a philosophical argument with some people. I'm picturing all of you around a dinner table, and I'm the new guy. After taking a drink of my wine and bringing up this conversation, someone politely taps me on the shoulder and whispers in my ear: "We don't talk religion, politics, or KISS rifles here..."

Thanks everyone for the different outlooks, the multitude of opinions, and your conversation. I feel I have learned a ton.

[Quib]

My HD carbine.......

[R Moran]

A little background...

I carried a “KISS” rifle for 12 years, from an A1 to an A2 and even an A2 carbine. It had nothing other then a 2pt parade sling, maybe a top sling adapter if I were lucky enough to find one in the surplus store.

I’ve also carried some more “complex” rifles. The most “tricked out” one, had a folding front sight(they just put it on there, I didn’t want it)KAC rail, VFG, 9volt SureFire, VITAL 2 laser, Aimpoint M2, PRI latch, Tango Down pistol grip, VTAC and later a VCAS sling.

While, one can make do with the so called kiss carbine, there is no way I’d go back to one by choice.

You see a lot of this in the 1911 world also.

Bells, whistles, add-on’s, etc? This denotes an almost trivial nature to them. Phrases like “everything you need and nothing you don’t”, etc. Also get tossed around alot. Some one will make that comment about a gun, that pretty much has everything you can do to the gun.

Well what is left?
If most consider a light and Optic mandatory, maybe a vfg, what else can someone be tempted to "hang” on his rail? IR lasers don’t come cheap. A visible laser? Some very switched on individuals advocate them. So what one more item, a laser of some sort, thats what this is all about?

Awhile back I took a class by Jim Smith, of BlackHawk down fame, after talking to his AI, we pretty much determined that the only real drawback to a FF rail, was cost. With some real benefits.
Which brings me to the comment about citing what instructors teach or say. Isn’t that why we go to the class in the first place? Relaying that info is now a bad thing?
If most of us relied solely on our own experience, we’d have not much more then a swiss army knife to defend ourselves. They bring insight, that we don’t have, and allow us to see things from a different perspective.

I can’t help but think there is a certain amount of “reverse elitism” going on. Where as some people thought they were looked down upon if they did not have a 2500 dollar gun, some people now assume you are a wanna be if you do.

Lets leave the peripheral arguments out of it for a second.
If you can’t afford it, you can’t afford it, move on.
If you won’t train, you won’t train, move on.
If you have no need or don’t know how to use the “add-on” you don’t know, move on.
All that is not a reflection on the gun itself, but just the shooter. A shooter that can’t take advantage of an Aimpoint, does not make the Aimpoint bad.
Either your switched on or your not.

In the above mentioned class, the main benefit of the FF tube, was the lack of shift in zero, when resting the weapon on cover, or applying tension with a sling, and I would assume a VFG, (they did not advocate them). They noted significant shifts in impact, how much someone like me, an average shooter would notice, I don’t know. But when I had the money, I decided to change to a FF tube. I also like the ability to push my light further out front, so I could grasp the rifle further out front.

It was observed, that many officers shoot no better at “CQB” ranges with an optic then with irons. Maybe, I usually shoot tighter groups with irons then a 4moa Aimpoint, but... what the Aimpoint offers you, is the ability to get on your sights much quicker, and easier , when shooting from non standard positions, rollover/sbu prone, officer down drills, around cover, etc. Also consider the use of a pro-mask. All possible with out the Aimpoint, much easier with it though.

In the end, what many people are arguing as a “KISS” rifle, is the same thing as the non kiss rifle, just arrived at somewhat differently.

A quality rifle, with a quality optic, quality white light, quality sling, quality spare mags and parts, and quality training. How you get there is almost irrelevant.

Bob