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And you are an expert how? Maybe you're too lazy to clean properly after an outing so therefore you don't like what you hear?
You're denying that pitting will occur if carbon is left in place for a significant amount of time? Like put into the safe until shot again months later?
Ever had an M16 in a jungle environment? Never been to the sandbox---which presents it's own unique problems---but I did spend 3 years in Panama as a grunt and I can tell you firsthand that carbon + oil + high humidity makes for a gummy mess. Of course we were never allowed to KEEP them that way.
Once again, for the reading impaired, I never said it would affect function unless perhaps in an extreme case. It WILL, however, pit your metal over time if left in place. And once again, those types of folks are why I won't buy a used AR.
Last edited by ABNAK; 07-28-09 at 13:49.
11C2P '83-'87
Airborne Infantry
I wonder how the carrier scraper affects that? The ones I've seen (MOACKS, Brownells) scrape the BACK of the carrier inner wall, right before it steps down for the tail's hole. Don't the rings form their seal on the circumference of the carrier?
I'm sure someone using a wire-wheel to clean the carbon off the bolt tail runs the risk of catching a ring and screwing things up. And yeah, the rod damage to barrels is probably the most common form of cleaning harm.
11C2P '83-'87
Airborne Infantry
IIRC at the Caputo class last fall, he said explicitly to NOT clean the bolt tail as there was significant potential to damage the bolt by overcleaning.
Something about how a gouge or scratch can cause the carbon to build up in an asymetrical fashion and indeed cause a failure. (I can't find my book from the Caputo class, so this last statement I don't want to swear by, since I may have misunderstood or misremembered).
I also seem to remember Caputo saying that he's NEVER once encountered a failure based on carbon buildup on the boat tail. He had plenty of other bolt failures, lugs shearing off, breaking down the center etc, but none were caused by carbon on the bolt tail.
Simply put it's a non-issue except for the most anal and you can indeed overclean a gun and yes Dean Caputo is an expert.
Last edited by Gutshot John; 07-28-09 at 14:01.
It is bad policy to fear the resentment of an enemy. -Ethan Allen
so will overloading/overcharging cases when reloading. 'over' anything is bad - no one's going to dispute that statement. "overcleaning" indicates that something is done improperly - either too often, or in a way that goes beyond routine maintenance and damages the weapon (like using dental picks too liberally and forcefully).
the balance lies somewhere in between 'spotless' and 'caked on crap' (like smglee's rifles).
let me preface by saying that i'm not a SME, LE, mil nor have i put countless rounds downrange. i'm writing from an engineering standpoint and understanding i've gained over the years of the system. it does not conflict with the statement that the AR system should be well lubricated.
when you dissect WHY you lubricate the system (not just knowing that it's required to keep the gun running), it's to manage carbon/debris buildup in the bearing surfaces that decrease clearances between moving parts.
i'm not going to argue against the necessity of lubrication for the AR system - i'm just digging deeper into why. shooting the weapon results in carbon particles being deposited in critical, and non-critical areas of the system, eventually to the point where the buildup, left unchecked, affects the functioning of the system. that's why it 'slows down'.
for example, if enough sand or debris finds itself into the cam pin channel to prevent full travel of the cam pin, that can affect locking and unlocking, going into complete battery etc.
keeping the system lubricated is the solution to this problem, by keeping the buildup wet, so that it collects in the nooks and crannies, rather than between bearing surfaces and in critical clearances.
particle buildup/debris between moving parts is not a good thing - whatever it is - carbon or fine particles of sand. the same folk that tell you to lubricate your weapons will remind you to keep that dust cover closed.
again, lubrication is the method of managing carbon buildup so it doesn't become a problem. but if allowed to build up to a point that there's no where else for the additional carbon to flow or collect, it's going to require a greater amount of lube to keep all that soft, than it would with a clean weapon.
all i'm saying is that all things being equal, i'm more confident in a cleaner weapon running longer between lubes than one that is already dirty, at least until it reaches the same point. to me, that's worth performing a bit of maintenance on it.
while scraping carbon off the rear of the bolt might not do anything to keep the weapon running, i don't see that wiping off the excess carbon buildup from the bolt body, cam pin etc hurts anything, but can actually help.
just my .02.
The "fleet of guns" was meant to imply that they've seen many examples of these guns, over a long period of time and many rounds without cleaning, as the basis for their opinions. Dean Caputo, for example, is a Colt armorer instructor and armorer for a police department in California. He has a Colt LE6933 (11.5" barrel) which more dirty and more finicky than their longer-barreled cousins which he has tortured by putting literally thousands of rounds through without cleaning - just lubing. I don't recall the exact count but I know it was well above 3,000 rounds before he cleaned it. It never malfunctioned.
I clean my guns a lot more frequently than that, but if just put a couple boxes through a gun to verify my zeros, I'm not going to be rushing home to clean it and I have complete confidence that it will run fine if I pick it up a month later as long as it's lubed.
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