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Thread: Carbon Removal tip

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbrowne1 View Post
    The "fleet of guns" was meant to imply that they've seen many examples of these guns, over a long period of time and many rounds without cleaning, as the basis for their opinions. Dean Caputo, for example, is a Colt armorer instructor and armorer for a police department in California. He has a Colt LE6933 (11.5" barrel) which more dirty and more finicky than their longer-barreled cousins which he has tortured by putting literally thousands of rounds through without cleaning - just lubing. I don't recall the exact count but I know it was well above 3,000 rounds before he cleaned it. It never malfunctioned.

    I clean my guns a lot more frequently than that, but if just put a couple boxes through a gun to verify my zeros, I'm not going to be rushing home to clean it and I have complete confidence that it will run fine if I pick it up a month later as long as it's lubed.
    Agreed about function.

    Pat Rogers and Dean Caputo, et al, do this for a living. They put many rounds downrange. They have access to many weapons and/or replacement parts if needed. Their take on things is what do you NEED to do to keep it running.

    Those guys also make WAY more $$$ than I do I'm sure. What weapons I have I prefer to keep in as good a condition as I can. That involves removing carbon buildup. If I wasn't concerned with my stuff as an INVESTMENT and only for actually working, then yes it could be put away dirty many times over. That's not how I choose to do it.

    Those gun-gurus are correct when they spell out what you have to do to keep an AR running. No doubt about it. Their admonitions about "overcleaning" are no doubt directed to guys who might clean their bolt with a wire wheel or ram their cleaning rods home with little regard for what it comes into contact with. Maybe "careless cleaning" would be a more appropriate term than "overcleaning".
    Last edited by ABNAK; 07-28-09 at 14:18.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    I have to completely disagree with that. I've scraped and steel brushed the living shit out of my bolt tales for over 10 years. I've never had the slightest problem.
    Again a sample of one isn't really an issue. Maybe you're doing a better job than others. Who knows what goofballs have done in the past, it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

    That said your statement can easily be turned around. I've had bolts that I've never cleaned in years and I've never had a problem.

    So?
    Last edited by Gutshot John; 07-28-09 at 14:41.
    It is bad policy to fear the resentment of an enemy. -Ethan Allen

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    Pat Rogers and Dean Caputo, et al, do this for a living. They put many rounds downrange. They have access to many weapons and/or replacement parts if needed. Their take on things is what do you NEED to do to keep it running.
    Again you keep missing the point.

    They have said that they never had a problem caused by fouling on the boat tail, not that they've never had failures.

    Do you think they just swap the bolt out without taking time to troubleshoot the problem? Maybe Pat might in the heat of a class, but Caputo makes his career/reputation on troubleshooting the AR system.

    I'm afraid your explanation of "their take on things" is deeply misunderstood, especially as that explanation is inconsistent with their statements/teaching.

    I'd highly recommend a Caputo AR Diagnostics Class if you get a chance.
    Last edited by Gutshot John; 07-28-09 at 14:38.
    It is bad policy to fear the resentment of an enemy. -Ethan Allen

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by militarymoron View Post
    i keep my guns clean because i see it as part of maintaining or taking care of something i own, like anything else. if i have time to go to the range, i have time to clean my guns.

    i've noticed a recent trend towards making fun of people who want to keep their weapons clean, telling them that they're wasting their time and that all that's needed to keep an AR running is keeping it wet/well lubricated.

    .....there's no negative conseqeuence to doing proper/correct, routine maintenance on a weapon, and people shouldn't be discouraged from doing so if they want to or have the time to, or their lives depend on it, as long as their maintenance routine is not excessive or damaging to the weapon.

    I agree.
    Last edited by Quib; 07-28-09 at 14:47.
    “A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves.” -Lao Tzu


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  5. #45
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    Well I am personally very anal about keeping my firearms very clean. I blame it on the Marine Corps. There were days in the Fleet where we'd spend all morning before afternoon chow and then all afternoon until we got off at 1630 cleaning our already-clean weapons.

    No after I get back from the range, whether I fired 100 or 1,000 rounds, I'm like, "MUST....CLEAN....RIFLE!!!"

    I'm sure my OCD doesn't help either

    -Paul

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutshot John View Post
    Again you keep missing the point.

    They have said that they never had a problem caused by fouling on the boat tail, not that they've never had failures.

    Do you think they just swap the bolt out without taking time to troubleshoot the problem? Maybe Pat might in the heat of a class, but Caputo makes his career/reputation on troubleshooting the AR system.

    I'm afraid your explanation of "their take on things" is deeply misunderstood, especially as that explanation is inconsistent with their statements/teaching.

    I'd highly recommend a Caputo AR Diagnostics Class if you get a chance.
    The one missing the point is you. I DON'T WANT PITTING ON MY SHIT BECAUSE I LEFT CARBON ON THERE. Very simple. They don't care 'cause they use these things for a living and can easily afford---and find---a replacement if necessary. It's hardly questioning their knowledge. Jeesh.
    11C2P '83-'87
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    The one missing the point is you. I DON'T WANT PITTING ON MY SHIT BECAUSE I LEFT CARBON ON THERE. Very simple. They don't care 'cause they use these things for a living and can easily afford---and find---a replacement if necessary. It's hardly questioning their knowledge. Jeesh.
    You're right, just made the whole thing up, my apologies, knock yourself out.
    It is bad policy to fear the resentment of an enemy. -Ethan Allen

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutshot John View Post
    Again a sample of one isn't really an issue. Maybe you're doing a better job than others.
    I am. My bolts are spotless!

    That said your statement can easily be turned around. I've had bolts that I've never cleaned in years and I've never had a problem.

    So?
    That's not even a logical argument since we're talking about cleaning doing damage. No one said lack of maintenance causes damage.

    And I have more than one AR.

    In any case, I've NEVER heard of someone damaging a bolt tail on any gun forum ever.... And I've read some pretty friggin stupid actions by dumb shooters. I suppose there's some idiot who has used a file or something stupid to do damage to the bolt, but I've never seen or read an actual account.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetreatHell View Post
    Well I am personally very anal about keeping my firearms very clean. I blame it on the Marine Corps. There were days in the Fleet where we'd spend all morning before afternoon chow and then all afternoon until we got off at 1630 cleaning our already-clean weapons.

    No after I get back from the range, whether I fired 100 or 1,000 rounds, I'm like, "MUST....CLEAN....RIFLE!!!"

    I'm sure my OCD doesn't help either

    -Paul
    Yeah, the Army and those Q-tip inspections at the armsroom door before turn-in did it to me too! Oh well, I've had friends who, while scoffing at my analness with regards to cleaning, said they wouldn't hesitate to buy one of my guns 'cause they know how I keep them.
    11C2P '83-'87
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  10. #50
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    Some of the replies are, to be quite honest, shocking.

    "There is nothing wrong with a dirty gun"

    Yes, there is. There absolutely is. I have put a stupid amount of rounds out of AR pattern firearms, and many others, and I've been around countless others regularly as they put stupid amounts of rounds out of theirs. They guys that don't clean them properly have many more problems. The AR-15 is a great rifle, if it is kept clean. Just because this is difficult to do, doesn't mean you aren't meant to do it.

    "So and so says you don't need to clean them that often"

    That is not relevant. People know that this is a plinking gun that most of the owners don't really need and don't shoot very often. A lot of information out there is there to please your ears. As many people jump in on the bandwagon due to the expiration of the ban and the proliferation of the internet, the world and web quickly fill up with the "new" standards. These new standards aren't accurate all the time.

    "overcleaning has damaged more weapons than undercleaning"

    Quantify "damage". I've never observed this to be the case. The military cleans theirs more than anyone, and a darn good portion of their rifles were, until recently, very old. Parts weren't changed nearly as often as they were supposed to be, and they ran fine. You take a look at a rifle someone has to rely on to survive a prolonged engagement, and before that mission starts, it is spotless. Before you go out, it is cleaned to a high standard and lubricated, it is the same when you come back. There are plenty of military units that have pitched in and bought themselves a parts washer to run their rifle parts through after range sessions, so they can get them that much more clean, that much more quickly. Don't tell Uncle Sam, though.

    "Chrome plating won't be scratched by the scraper"

    Oh, yes it will, that's why I haven't used one unless it was entirely necessary for a quick cleanup. Chrome is hard to scratch, but as soon as you bring a sharp metal object into the equation, it can and will happen eventually. Chrome plating will wear out by rubbing on aluminum if you give it a chance. That is why it is important to clean properly and take care while doing it. Cleaning causes it's own form of wear, but it is more of a polishing effect, and can be minimized. The actual firing of the weapon with far outpace any wear caused by cleaning.

    Dean may have fired 3000 rounds before cleaning his Ar, he may not have. Sometimes people do these things to test reliability of certain features, modifications, or weapon systems built in a new or nicer way. Sometimes, they just don't clean them, and they don't have a reason.

    If I ever meet him, I'll have a bit of a chat about not cleaning the bolt tail.

    There is no logic behind this, it is laziness. I don't care what sort of expert he is supposed to be. That bolt tail needs to be cleaned, it is easy to do even after a thousand rounds, and there is no excuse not to do it.

    I know the AR can tolerate some carbon. If it couldn't, it would malfunction on the second round every time. That isn't the point. The rifle is your life. The more carbon on the bolt carrier group, the more malfunctions you will experience. Firing here and there may not show it, but it will show when you need it. Using it to protect yourself or engage the enemy will push that rifle past it's limits, and that is when this stuff comes into play.

    I can understand that there is some amount of subjectivity involved in what parts are currently in fashion, and I can understand that many people have opinions about many things, but so far as cleaning is concerned, there is only one right way, and that is to clean it completely, so far as basic field-stripping will allow.

    You just can't re-invent this wheel.

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