Current shooting incidents and what can we learn from them.

[Irish]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss current shooting incidents with respect to self defense and what we can all learn from them in the way of our own tactics. Intelligent debate, advice and comments are all welcome with respect to the given information. Hopefully this will also turn into a list of positive uses of firearms and will support the position of being pro-2nd Amendment in regards to defending one's self and loved ones.

I will try to update this daily if at all possible so that current, relevent shootings can be discussed. If you have something to contribute that I haven't posted, please do so, but follow the guidelines of providing a link to the information and a small summary in your post.

In no way is this a thread to slander, bash, insult or denegrate LEOs, military or private citizens for their actions. This is a place for us to learn from other's experiences and what works, what doesn't and how we can become better prepared to deal with a situation if we're ever confronted with a similar scenario.

Also, please reference the article you're commenting on by the corresponding letter & number to the left i.e. A-2.

A-1http://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/s....803d16fc.html
The Idaho County Sheriff's Office had honored a Cottonwood woman with a certificate of achievement saying she showed true courage in the face of danger for fending off two prison escapees who tried to break into her home.

A-2http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...,4496841.story
A Brinks security guard shot and killed a would-be robber who attacked him while he was making a routine stop at a South Miami-Dade health clinic Friday, according to witnesses.

A-3http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/251/story/789782.html
ATLANTA -- Police say a man who shot and killed his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend was acting in self defense.

[Jay Cunningham]

Sounds like a good idea - as long as people stick to your ground rules.

[John_Wayne777]

The original media link is dead, but here's the story:

Police identify robber, customer in deadly Burger King shooting
Related Content
Robber fatally shot in Miami Burger King holdup
BY JOSE PAGLIERY
jpagliery@MiamiHerald.com
Miami police released the names of those involved in the Burger King shootout Tuesday that ended with a dead armed robber and the seriously-wounded customer who shot him.

John Landers, 45, was the customer who walked up to the gun-wielding masked robber, 18-year-old Johnny Jean-Baptiste, when the restaurant's clerk was being robbed at 4 p.m. Tuesday.

According to police, Jean-Baptiste wore a ski mask when he walked into the Burger King at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard armed with a gun. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early. Jean-Baptiste then approached the counter, pointed his tiny semiautomatic Bryco .380 towards the restaurant's employees and demanded money.

That's when Landers, armed with a concealed weapons permit and his 9mm Glock 19, asked Jean-Baptiste to put the gun down, according to the police report.

Jean-Baptiste refused and began firing his gun and Landers shot back, police reported.

Within seconds, Landers had been shot in his chest, shoulder and arm -- and Jean-Baptiste lay dead on the restaurant floor, according to police.

According to police, Jean-Baptiste entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money. Within seconds, Landers eyed him and the two started arguing.

Jean-Baptiste fell to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

Landers, who was shot several times, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.

After the shootings, police divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.

''I just hope all my people are OK inside,'' Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years, said at the time. ``It is scary.''

The area is a prime destination for residents in the Upper East Side neighborhood -- featuring Soyka's restaurant, Sushi Siam and Andiamo Pizza.

The gun used by the robber was on the list of top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according TIME magazine, which published a study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Miami Herald staff writer Robert Samuels contributed to this story.

The good guy posts as DJohn on Lightfighter. A detail left out by the article is that he approached the bad guy and told him to drop his weapon. Bad guy spun around and started shooting.

[decodeddiesel]

I agree with The Kater. I think if we stick to intelligent analysis and debate of the TTPs involved in the shooting this could be an excellent thread.

That being said, it is awfully easy to armchair QB said events from the comfort of my office chair.

[Irish]

The good guy posts as DJohn on Lightfighter. A detail left out by the article is that he approached the bad guy and told him to drop his weapon. Bad guy spun around and started shooting.

I'm glad John survived and I hope he and his family are recovering quickly. Fortunately for me I've never been in this type of situation and hope I never have to be.

With that being said what would be the consequences of shooting the armed robber VS verbally confronting him as in that scenario? Personally, I would feel that it is justified and would have no problem supporting that decision. I am not condoning arbitrarily taking another life but it would seem in retrospect that it might be prudent when confronted with a similar situation.

I am not an LEO and haven't been trained in suspect apprehension so I don't think it would be prudent for me to attempt this approach. I also do not want to get in a gun fight in the middle of a public place, or anywhere else for that matter. Is the simplest approach the best? By either not getting involved and hoping for the best or to stop the threat who's wearing a ski mask and brandishing a gun?

[Drummer]

I'm glad John survived and I hope he and his family are recovering quickly. Fortunately for me I've never been in this type of situation and hope I never have to be.

With that being said what would be the consequences of shooting the armed robber VS verbally confronting him as in that scenario? Personally, I would feel that it is justified and would have no problem supporting that decision. I am not condoning arbitrarily taking another life but it would seem in retrospect that it might be prudent when confronted with a similar situation.

I am not an LEO and haven't been trained in suspect apprehension so I don't think it would be prudent for me to attempt this approach. I also do not want to get in a gun fight in the middle of a public place, or anywhere else for that matter. Is the simplest approach the best? By either not getting involved and hoping for the best or to stop the threat who's wearing a ski mask and brandishing a gun?

As a LEO, this is a situation I've considered many times. I agree, giving a verbal command, especially alone and without cover, would not be a tactic employed by me. I feel the best plan of action would be to either hunker down and be a good observer or engage the bad guy. At that point, the bad guy was obviously armed and committing a violent felony. Use of force is justified in my state. But there are many more variables, such as the presence of family members (do I want to get in a gun battle with my family in the place?), number of bad guys, known and unknown (get away car, lookouts?) and so on.

The goal in the situation is to prevent loss of life, including the bad guy's. The hard part is determining WHEN to step in to prevent loss of life.

[decodeddiesel]

I'm glad John survived and I hope he and his family are recovering quickly. Fortunately for me I've never been in this type of situation and hope I never have to be.

With that being said what would be the consequences of shooting the armed robber VS verbally confronting him as in that scenario? Personally, I would feel that it is justified and would have no problem supporting that decision. I am not condoning arbitrarily taking another life but it would seem in retrospect that it might be prudent when confronted with a similar situation.

I am not an LEO and haven't been trained in suspect apprehension so I don't think it would be prudent for me to attempt this approach. I also do not want to get in a gun fight in the middle of a public place, or anywhere else for that matter. Is the simplest approach the best? By either not getting involved and hoping for the best or to stop the threat who's wearing a ski mask and brandishing a gun?

This is exactly what I was thinking.

Do you have a responsibility legally to demand the BG disarm?

Ethically it is a huge dilemma. Shoot first clean up later, or CYA and demand the BG disarm before engaging. Honestly I would rather shoot first with the advantage than get shot myself by the BG, or worse have an innocent bystander get hit in the process.

Still though you would have to live with knowing you shot a man in the back, AND that could easily backfire if A.) the weapon the BG was using was not real, or not even loaded, and B.) if some ultra-liberal Judge/prosecutor wants to make you into some sort of cold blooded bastard who didn't even give "Johnny with the substance abuse problem" a chance to surrender or flee but rather gunned him down in the back with an evil Glock with equally evil hollow point black talon cop killer bullets.

Perhaps the proper thing to do would have been to seek cover (easier said than done in something like a McDonalds) THEN demand the BG put down his weapon.

[Zhurdan]

I remember reading about this incident when it happened. My first thought was how long did he argue with the guy to drop the gun? Not knowing that, I thought to myself that shooting someone in the back would surely lead to a whole lot of 'splaining to do' Lucy! On the flip side, if I'd decided that he was a deadly threat to myself or others, I might give him just enough of a "Drop the gun" warning for him to turn my way, then hit him hard and fast as soon as he turned. The bad guy had his gun in hand, I'd approach him the same way.

The way I look at it, and I imagine the law most likely doesn't in most states, is that if someone commits a crime with gun in hand, they didn't bring it there to talk about the weather. It implies deadly intent. If they didn't mean to hurt anyone, they'd have brought a feather duster.

I was involved in an incident about 11 years ago where I had to draw my weapon. I didn't have to fire, thank God, but the thing I think about most after having to draw my gun, was what happened to me AFTER the incident. I know I'll catch hell for this but oh well. The police arrived, cuffed both me and the bad guy (how do they know who's who afterall) and put me in the back of a cruiser. Shock, utter shock gripped my whole body. I couldn't breath, I cried like a little baby, and no kidding, I pissed myself. Yeah, I know, that's horrible, but it's the truth. During the incident, I remember being cool and collected. I recall a majority of the incident that happened in front of me, but don't recall anything to the sides of me. (that's bad) I didn't have a breakdown until after they put me in the cruiser, but it got me thinking... what if I'd have locked up during the incident? I'd imagine that different people are prone to locking up at different points in an incident. Luckily, I didn't lock up until after the danger was gone, but I thank my lucky stars every day that I didn't freeze up at the wrong time. Adrenaline is a freaky thing!

[decodeddiesel]

I remember reading about this incident when it happened. My first thought was how long did he argue with the guy to drop the gun? Not knowing that, I thought to myself that shooting someone in the back would surely lead to a whole lot of 'splaining to do' Lucy! On the flip side, if I'd decided that he was a deadly threat to myself or others, I might give him just enough of a "Drop the gun" warning for him to turn my way, then hit him hard and fast as soon as he turned. The bad guy had his gun in hand, I'd approach him the same way.

The way I look at it, and I imagine the law most likely doesn't in most states, is that if someone commits a crime with gun in hand, they didn't bring it there to talk about the weather. It implies deadly intent. If they didn't mean to hurt anyone, they'd have brought a feather duster.

I was involved in an incident about 11 years ago where I had to draw my weapon. I didn't have to fire, thank God, but the thing I think about most after having to draw my gun, was what happened to me AFTER the incident. I know I'll catch hell for this but oh well. The police arrived, cuffed both me and the bad guy (how do they know who's who afterall) and put me in the back of a cruiser. Shock, utter shock gripped my whole body. I couldn't breath, I cried like a little baby, and no kidding, I pissed myself. Yeah, I know, that's horrible, but it's the truth. During the incident, I remember being cool and collected. I recall a majority of the incident that happened in front of me, but don't recall anything to the sides of me. (that's bad) I didn't have a breakdown until after they put me in the cruiser, but it got me thinking... what if I'd have locked up during the incident? I'd imagine that different people are prone to locking up at different points in an incident. Luckily, I didn't lock up until after the danger was gone, but I thank my lucky stars every day that I didn't freeze up at the wrong time. Adrenaline is a freaky thing!

Nothing to be ashamed of bro. I have seen a lot of good people "lock up" the first time a bullet goes over your head or you see your buddy get hit. It happens, no matter how much training you have.

I puked my guts out after my first fire fight, and I didn't sleep for days.

[Irish]

Zhurdan - Thank you for sharing the realities of your incident, nothing to be ashamed of. The real effects of insanely stressful, adrenaline fueled, life or death incidents don't often play out the way people want them to on the internet.