Budget kit guns, opinions.

[C4IGrant]

Grant I don't mind you calling me on this stuff, as long as you don't mind being called on stuff as well.

On the front end, there are no M4's in the civilian world in the truest military sense.

The reason I called you out is that I was pretty certain you were not sure what you were talking about. This forum is about accurate, first hand information (not rumors and or guesses).

You are correct that the only way to get a TRUE M4 is to be issued one. You can however buy a lot of the components that are used in them.

With that said I called Dennis to confirm what I had been saying.

The bolts are "FN contract" his words. I apologize I was incorrect.

This is a good BCG if it comes from where I think it does.

I would have to get a pic of the FSB, I have a colt M4 on my gun (I couldn't reisist for $300) I will have to get to the shop which won't be today for the FSB. I just went and looked at my AUTHENTIC from Iraq M4 and I'll be darned, no "F" on the FSB, hmm, I guess I don't have a real one.

The TPD might very well not require an F to be stamped on the FSB (don't know). Companies like Colt, do stamp their 6920 FSB with an F. This just gurantees that the FSB is the proper height to use with irons on a flattop.

It has 3 symbols, one of which is a "B", there is a circle in the middle. Sorry I can't get the cert for you, but I can give you some finger prints if necessary.

The steel you say that JT is using is 4150 Vanadium (see the cert number I used in my last post). This type of steel comes with a certification and is VERY hard to get and VERY expensive. I do not believe that they are using this steel until I see the cert (sorry).

Next are the extensions, I miss understsood the extension question, and no they don't have the M4 extensions. Now I also ask you to tell me which of the big names offers the M4 extensions.

Big name companies that offer them are Colt, LMT, STAG (special edition 14.5's), Noveske Rifle Works, Armalite, BCM and CMMG.

And aren't they a feature that only the colt M4can have? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have been known to be before.

Incorrect. Anyone can purchase these and use them.

Next is the color of the insert (why is the color so important, so when you are rocking and rolling with a semi you get reliable extraction??) I'll be darned but I can't remember I think the insert is blue.

The color isn't so important, but the density of the insert is. Blue inserts (traditionally) are softer and meant for AR's with rifle length gas systems. Black inserts are stiffer and are for AR's with carbine length gas systems. Currently, Colt installs BOTH rifle length gas and carbine length gas AR's with black inserts now. The purpose of using the black insert VS the blue one is to aid in extraction.

But seriously, if these things, the insert, the "F" on the FSB, and the BC are your claims to fame and justify the extra $300 or so, hmm.

I am not sure where you are going with this. I never said that they were "MY" claim to fame. The components being discussed are what makes an AR more reliable and easier to zero. These are also items that are required per the TDP.

I'm not going to backpedal on any of this. The M4s from the big builders don't have many of the features you are citing. I know bushy doesn't, RRA doest IIRC, just to name a couple I'm fairly sure of.

Just because the the big boys (RRA and BM) do a certain thing doesn't make it right. Both of these companies build an OK AR at best and would think that any company that wanted to do it "right" wouldn't be following in their foot steps.

As far as the bbls, these are the VERY SAME BBLS THAT COLT IS USING. And if you will also say that Colt is making their own lowers that isn't true and I know that for a fact. With that said, I seriously doubt that the are making the BC. And I would like just as much proof of what you say as you ask from me.

Again, please provide the cert for the barrel. If not, I do not believe that these JT barrels are made out of the same materials. I will grant you that Shaw does make Colt barrels from time to time, but the steel they use to make them, comes directly from the Govt and is almost like a controlled substance.

The info about Colt making everything in house comes directly from Colt and from their factory authorized armorers.

]Now I would like to know the quantities and configurations of the JT guns you have seen.

I have personally examined two kits to date and looked at their stuff at Shot this year. Fit/finish seemed ok, but that stuff really doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the internal specs.

Please, please, please tell me the manufacturers that are doing exactly what you are asking from JT. Then compare the prices of the onesies and twosies, versus the mass manufacturing.

No company is building AR's with the 4150 Vanadium Steel for what JT is asking. The reason is, that it really isn't possible (which is why I don't think JT is either).

I would like to apologize for hijacking this thread. I have been on the boards under this name TNRonin for many years, I try like hell not to be a blow hard, but quite frankly, the attitude of the "washed" towards the "un-washed" really puts me and others off. Flame suit on.

M4C is a technical forum (not like the one you normally live on). We look for details and accuracy (especially when dealing with weapons). This is why I have called you on stating that JT kits are high quality. We need to see true specs before such a claim can be accurate.



C4

[Dport]

I had 10 M4A1s in my armory. Actually, I had 20 in two armories, but only 10 at a time. They all had F on the FSB.

[Low Drag]

I have a Colt HBar A2, and a Bushy M4 type.

This was an idea I got from reading a thread over at ARFcom, it would definitely be for nothing more than plinking. Any guns that I need for serious work are issued by my employer.

The intent of the project is to see if a functional rifle can be built with the "budget" kits and then shoot it to death to see if it will function reliably.
Post a range and build report on the process. Kind of like Mythbusters...........

Well I for one would be very interested in what you come up with and how it shoots. From what you've posted it sounds like you can get a good buy on the "lower end parts".

Like I said, I'm interested in the results. I've never been about labels or brand names, I like to get VALUE from my purchases.

[M4arc]

Here's my thoughs:

If you can afford to spend the money on a 'plinker' go for it. I think it would be a fun little gun to piss around and tinker with if you have a knack for that sort of thing. I'm a tinker myself with it comes to ARs (and other things) so I like having a budget/beater AR in the stable.

Any Model 1 or J&T kit will work and who knows, you might even learn something that you didn't know about the AR system in the process.

However, if that money can be better spent on a quality optic, ammo or something else like training then I'd have to advice against building a budget gun. But if all your other ducks are in a row and the money isn't an issue then sure, why not?

[Resq47]

I had a bad result with a kit gun early on. I did get it to run, after replacing the upper receiver and LPK parts that failed unexpectedly (how many guys really break bolt catches???). I sold off that gun last year and the extractor spring broke into several pieces recently after...maybe 6-7K?

Anyway, I won't go that route again as the Tier 3 kit shops just don't carry what I look for. There are so many better options on the market in recent years it's just silly The shining exception is the dedicated sacrificial .22LR barrel/upper I'm looking for. I won't have any qualms building around a $150 whatever barrel for that...

[comp1911]

I've given up on "kits" long ago.

[89hits]

I am considering a rock bottom budget build to test the quality of the lowest priced kits available, any thoughts on this?

Read some interesting threads on that other AR site

Well you probably read mine where I stated my experience with the Blackthorne kit and Superior lower.Worst mistake I ever made, over on that site.They went crazy, said I was an emplyeee of Hesse , etc.Hesse is now Blackthorne supposedly.Anyhow, the 16 inch flattop kit was 359, the Superior lower was 89.Postage was 10 each for a total of Approx 470. Heck, the kit was great, had excellent parts, t marked flattop, wilson bbl, cardinal forge mark on upper, forged fsb.I gave I think 20 for an add on a2 rear sight locally.The lower kit was of great quality and I initially thought it was a LMT parts kit, not for sure now but its still of great quality for a LPK in a kit gun.The Superior lower was fantastic.All the right tolerances and good/great fit.All in all after 1500 or more rounds, the dang thing is rockin and rollin, never had any, repeat any trouble or failures.The trigger is getting very nice also.End of story, less the 500 bucks.