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Thread: Non-Ballistic Pistol AAR Lessons Learned

  1. #1
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    Non-Ballistic Pistol AAR Lessons Learned

    Even though this is the fourth class we have done using airsofts for force on force it is the first on that had no live fire at all. Here are some of the benefits of this course and training with airsoft over live ammo, paintball, or Simmunition.

    If you train with MCS we supply KWS Glock 19s and Raven Concealment Phantom holsters. Also included in the gas and BBs.

    This course can be done in any space about the size of a two car garage in or outside.

    There is no need to have any live weapons or ammunition in the training environment.

    We can fight in and around vehicles with very minimal chance of damage. You might not want to use your new BMW or Hummer though.

    We use traditional targets and stands at first to teach techniques. Then we move on to force on force ranging from very simple drills such as being pushed down backwards, breaking your fall, drawing you pistol and engaging the target, to using the situation room where instructors and students come up with different scenarios ranging from low light/no light, home invasions, walking down a street, facing open hand, impact weapons, edged weapon attacks as well as multiple attackers.

    Since using airsoft here are a few of our theories that have been evidenced with all shooters whether they had lots of previous training or had only shot a pistol a few times.

    Now after hundreds of scenarios and drill with thousands of rounds fired I think we have had about a dozen head shots and none were intentional. No students have ever claimed to have been able to transition from chest to head shots. When head shots do occur they seem to either be when the bad guy is charging with his head down or has been hit in the groin bringing his head forward.

    An extreme amount of round strike the forearms, fingers and hands of attackers especially if they are using a pistol

    During force on force students seldom seem to be able to get both hands on the gun due to the proximity of the threat. As the threat stops, backs up or the good guy is able to gain distance he will go to two hands. We also see that especially with contact distance assaults with open hands, impact weapons and knives that the good guy is not able to get his arm to full extension, this prevents him from having the opportunity to use is sights or even the silhouette of the gun for sighting. The hit rate remains extremely high however do to ritualized combat that puts the attacker in line with the shooters muzzle during the attack.

    Spontaneous open hand, edged weapon and impact weapons result in in the good guy using his weak arm to cover, wrap or block attacks. This results in good defense and control of the offending arm but often causes a fouled draw in the form on drawing the pistol with a cover garment wrapped around it, or a dropped gun. The farther behind the pocket seam the gun is worn the more likely this is to occur. This further evidences our research showing that gun carriers have got to have an open hand skill set. When students use both hands to defend open handed they usually suffer less trauma, end up not needing their pistol, or creating sufficient time and distance to draw the pistol.

    Even during bright sunlight conditions student continually fail to identify the bright blue Blue Rings Box Cutter until they are cut with it. They usually believe they are being hit with a round house punch.


    Just some points to ponder.

  2. #2
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    hey george how's things. i've been using simmunitions for almost 9 years, a few things i've observed:
    most don't use sights when threat is up close
    large percentage of shots on both sides strike the gun arm/hands ( i believe the students focuss on the threat (in this case the gun) whether they know it or not)
    never seen anybody use the weaver stance under stress (they may shoot weaver on a sqaure range but i've never seen anyone use during any force on force training
    again folks this is off the top of my head that i see day in and day out. i'm not saying it's the rule but certain things repeat them selves on a regular basis, and these students come from the tri state area so i see a large cross section of students with varing levels of training and experience. just to give you an idea i train between 4-5000 students a year. that's not a typo 4000-5000.

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    Tony, long time no talk bro. It is amazing how much time, and ammunition is being spent on things that just don't seem to jive with what we see in shootings and force on force.- George

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    you know george i put alot of rounds down range in my day but working with sims has been a bone for me as far as learning how to fight with guns. you'll see the same things creep up in each class over and over. alot of gunfighting myths have fallen flat on thier face with the advent of force on force type training, it can really be an eye opener.

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    Tony, as you may or may not know I do a lot with edged weapons. I use my Spontaneous Attack Survival for Edged Weapon Course to teach open hand combatives since edged weapons allow little room for error. You can definitely tell the students who have been to the SAS class before the Non-Ballistic Combative Pistol Course. They have more confidence when it comes to dealing with a fight at conversation distance. They are attack with open hand, stick, knives, and guns, knocked down, slammed up against walls and vehicles. The know that trying to draw a gun when you don't have the time or space can mean a fouled draw or dropped gun. They also know they can get good contact shots while controlling their attacker with their reaction side hand.

    Everyone including police needs to take a very hard look at the implementation of open hand combatives into DT, you need DT that compliments the carry of a pistol, not replaces it. The goal is not to fight with a gun but rather to fight with a gun in your hand.- George

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    i totally agree. but most think its easier or better to get on a range and sling lead down range. it's not always about the gun. but try to make people understand that.

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    We both know that after a shooting they will know. Shooting on the range at targets is like playing with yourself. Feels good, and you get to handle your equipment but does not prepare you for the real thing.- George

  8. #8
    ToddG Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Detmongo View Post
    most don't use sights when threat is up close
    I think most (nearly all) don't use sights unless they have an attack planned in advance (i.e., ambush). Reacting to a fight by necessity means looking at the threat(s) and thus we can't really be looking at our sights. Having the discipline to bring your vision off the BigBadManWithAGun and to the sights is not just difficult to achieve but also probably of only arguable benefit at close range.

    large percentage of shots on both sides strike the gun arm/hands ( i believe the students focuss on the threat (in this case the gun) whether they know it or not)
    Our mutual little buddy and I did some FOF training while traveling from CT to MT last year. He got shot in the hands repeatedly to the point he was really quite pissed off about it. While part of the issue is certainly weapon threat focus, it's also simply true that a well trained opponent is probably going to be holding his gun in an aggressive 2-handed stance that puts the pistol and hands right around the upper chest area. Add movement, etc., and it's highly likely that a good shooter purposely aiming for the upper chest is going to hit hands/gun. I don't see that as a terrible outcome ... if his hands and/or gun are disabled and he can no longer fight, I win.

    never seen anybody use the weaver stance under stress (they may shoot weaver on a sqaure range but i've never seen anyone use during any force on force training
    ... or in any dash cam video, etc. Human bodies do certain things under stress because we're hard wired to react certain ways. Stances and techniques which expect you to behave contrary to this natural reaction are providing less efficient training value. Rather than spend countless hours on the range trying to fight natural reactions, why not just incorporate them into your plan and use the time you've saved to practice, oh, I don't know ... getting hits.

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    oh todd i would loved to have seen our little buddies face when his wittle hands started to hurt.

  10. #10
    ToddG Guest
    The funny thing is that before we started, I put on gloves and he was ranking on me mercilessly about being such a wimp. Then the very first shot I fired put a golfball sized swollen welt on his knuckle. Irony? Justice? Evidence of God's existence? Possibly all three.

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