Total wound channel comparisons

[Glock17JHP]

Personally, I lean toward the side of "bigger holes with fewer shots" mindset, and nothing compares with 12 gauge buckshot in that arena. Consequently, our primary home defense firearms are shotguns--my side of the bed has an 870, and my wife's side has an 11-87, both loaded with 3-inch #1 buck.

Ummm... how well do you both shoot those loads??? OUCH!!!

[tpd223]

Questions for DrJSW:

1) Is good expanding ammunition required for incapacitation, or is such possible with non-expanding round nose or FMJ bullets?

2) With accurate shot placement, is it possible with a typical, round nose .22 long rifle round to achieve incapacitation?

3) If incapacitation is NOT possible with a typical .22 long rifle bullet, regardless of shot placement, what, then, is the minimum required handgun cartridge and bullet to achieve incapacitation?

4) Since accurate shot placement is required for incapacitation, is there any reason to use a caliber/cartridge larger than the .22 long rifle (or the minimum required caliber/bullet that can cause incapacitation with accurate shot placement.)

5) Again, since accurate shot placement is required for incapacitation, is there any reason to fire more than one shot with the minimum required caliber/cartridge capable of incapacitation?



Why do you want to ask questions that are just short of stupid as hell, especially from a guy as busy as the good Doc?

Of course one can use a .22 for defense, or RN nonexpanding ammo, but that would be a poor decision if one had other choices, hence why we pre-plan our responses.

Good quality service caliber handgun ammunition helps insure that a reliable wound to the vital structures we need to hit to stop a bad guy actually get damaged.
Due to the nature of how small caliber bullets penetrate (unreliably), and how RN ammo functions, terminally speaking, they do not give us these advantages.

Since no one on the planet is good enough to ensure a solid hit the first try, and even then it is best to shoot until we know the threat is stopped, obviously firing more than one round will likely be called for.

[BuckskinJoe]

I asked...

Questions for DrJSW:

1) Is good expanding ammunition required for incapacitation, or is such possible with non-expanding round nose or FMJ bullets?

2) With accurate shot placement, is it possible with a typical, round nose .22 long rifle round to achieve incapacitation?

3) If incapacitation is NOT possible with a typical .22 long rifle bullet, regardless of shot placement, what, then, is the minimum required handgun cartridge and bullet to achieve incapacitation?

4) Since accurate shot placement is required for incapacitation, is there any reason to use a caliber/cartridge larger than the .22 long rifle (or the minimum required caliber/bullet that can cause incapacitation with accurate shot placement.)

5) Again, since accurate shot placement is required for incapacitation, is there any reason to fire more than one shot with the minimum required caliber/cartridge capable of incapacitation?

Why do you want to ask questions that are just short of stupid as hell, especially from a guy as busy as the good Doc?

Of course one can use a .22 for defense, or RN nonexpanding ammo, but that would be a poor decision if one had other choices, hence why we pre-plan our responses.

Good quality service caliber handgun ammunition helps insure that a reliable wound to the vital structures we need to hit to stop a bad guy actually get damaged.
Due to the nature of how small caliber bullets penetrate (unreliably), and how RN ammo functions, terminally speaking, they do not give us these advantages.

Since no one on the planet is good enough to ensure a solid hit the first try, and even then it is best to shoot until we know the threat is stopped, obviously firing more than one round will likely be called for.

Thank you for your response and kind words, sir, but the questions were not addressed to you. Unless DrJSW has designated you as his spokesperson, please allow him to respond if he so chooses.

[BuckskinJoe]

Originally Posted by BuckskinJoe
Personally, I lean toward the side of "bigger holes with fewer shots" mindset, and nothing compares with 12 gauge buckshot in that arena. Consequently, our primary home defense firearms are shotguns--my side of the bed has an 870, and my wife's side has an 11-87, both loaded with 3-inch #1 buck.

Ummm... how well do you both shoot those loads??? OUCH!!!

Hey, thanks for asking. Actually, we do quite well. My wife is very unusual in that she likes heavy loads and recoil. The last time we shot, she had five well-placed shots (three to COM and two to the head) in very rapid fire with the 11-87. The 870 kicks harder than the semi-auto, but I don't mind it too much, unless I am firing 30 to 40 rounds at a shotgun match. At that point, my cheek and shoulder cross the OUCH threshold! If we ever have to use them in defense, the last thing we will notice is recoil.

[DrJSW]

Questions for DrJSW:

1) Is good expanding ammunition required for incapacitation, or is such possible with non-expanding round nose or FMJ bullets?

2) With accurate shot placement, is it possible with a typical, round nose .22 long rifle round to achieve incapacitation?

3) If incapacitation is NOT possible with a typical .22 long rifle bullet, regardless of shot placement, what, then, is the minimum required handgun cartridge and bullet to achieve incapacitation?

4) Since accurate shot placement is required for incapacitation, is there any reason to use a caliber/cartridge larger than the .22 long rifle (or the minimum required caliber/bullet that can cause incapacitation with accurate shot placement.)

5) Again, since accurate shot placement is required for incapacitation, is there any reason to fire more than one shot with the minimum required caliber/cartridge capable of incapacitation?

Given your choice of bedside home defense weapons, I have to wonder why you are asking these questions.

First, I recommend you re-read Dr. Roberts' sticky post on service caliber handgun ammunition:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887


Unless one lives in New Jersey or a jurisdiction outside the USA that prohibits use of JHP ammunition, one should always use the best quality JHP ammunition available. I believe it's wise to select a caliber and cartridge that is commonly used by law enforcement in duty handguns, which means 38 Special or 9mm at minimum.

The defensive-minded private citizen should select the handgun caliber they can shoot best, select good quality JHP ammunition, and get the best training in use of the firearm and in the use of deadly force they can afford. There are several outstanding trainers who truly know and understand use of deadly force by private citizens and can communicate it effectively, including John Farnam, Clint Smith, and Massad Ayoob. Anyone who keeps a firearm for home/personal defense needs such training. Thereafter, the wise defensive-minded person needs to train regularly with their chosen firearm(s) and ammunition.

Finally, as to the number of rounds that need to be expended: shoot to stop the threat, and don't stop shooting until the threat has been stopped.

"Don't shoot your enemy until you think he's dead; keep shooting him until he thinks he's dead."

- quote from a friend who has been on the sharp end of the spear for several decades.