Press Out

[YVK]

During this week I came across two threads with this concept which entirely new to me.
That's how it is explained by Todd:

Folks who are "slower" with DA/SA guns, etc., normally don't do a proper press out as part of the drawstroke.


(image used completely without permission from byrong.com)

In the above photo, you can see that my finger moves to the trigger as soon as my front sight is on the target. I'm refining my sight picture and pressing the trigger as the gun moves so that at the moment right before I'm at full extension, the hammer is almost all the way back.

Without actually being present at the class it is hard to me to wrap my brain around this: not only the finger is on trigger, the trigger is being pulled before final sight picture is ascertained. Depending on how one reads a cardinal safety rule, this may or may not be interpreted as a violation:

- keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire - press out looks like safety break

vs.

- keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target - press out seems fine then.

So until I make my way into one of Todd's classes, I'd have to ask Todd, and everybody else who has experience with this:

- I'd imagine that you wouldn't teach that if you thought it was a safety violation. Does this question come up in class and what's the answer?

- Have there been instances of shooters pressing out the shot too early, i.e. before achieving full arm extension (which is in my mind would be an equivalent of ND)?

- How would this technique be applicable to 1911 users?

- Did this technique come out of competition shooting (this is pure curiosity as I am aware that many competition-derived techniques have been accepted by tactical community)?

I hope I was able to convey that I am neither critical nor skeptical of this; I am simply trying to learn.

[John_Wayne777]

Without actually being present at the class it is hard to me to wrap my brain around this:

I was at the class, so let me help with that.

not only the finger is on trigger, the trigger is being pulled before final sight picture is ascertained. Depending on how one reads a cardinal safety rule, this may or may not be interpreted as a violation:

- keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire - press out looks like safety break

The "press out" is a term used to describe the process of pushing the weapon out toward the target. You have already drawn the weapon and are in the process of trying to put a round on the target. While pressing the weapon out toward the target you acquire the sights and begin the trigger press so that at about the time your arms hit full extension you're breaking the shot.

The key pieces to remember here are this:

- You have already made the decision to shoot.
- You have already made the decision to shoot.
- You have already made the decision to shoot.

You're not pulling the gun out just in case...you're doing so because you've already made the decision to put a bullet in whatever you are indexing on...be that a paper target who has to be perforated to win a match or a drill, or a bad person who needs to be perforated to keep yourself alive.

So until I make my way into one of Todd's classes, I'd have to ask Todd, and everybody else who has experience with this:

- I'd imagine that you wouldn't teach that if you thought it was a safety violation. Does this question come up in class and what's the answer?

Picture this. You're out and about minding your business at the grocery store when some assclown walks in and starts shooting at you. At what point do you make the decision to fire?

Answer: When you perceive that there is a threat that requires the judicious application of lethal force to stop.

Where is your weapon when you make this determination?

Answer: Probably in the holster.

So what do you really need to do?

Answer: Get the weapon out of the holster, on target, and get a round into that guy before he kills you.

- Have there been instances of shooters pressing out the shot too early, i.e. before achieving full arm extension (which is in my mind would be an equivalent of ND)?

Yes, it's entirely possible to break a shot before you are at full extension...but that's not a problem for a couple of reasons:

1. You are actually looking at the sights while the weapon is back at your face. In the first picture Todd is already picking up the front sight. During the press out he refines the orientation of the firearm to get an acceptable alignment between front and rear (which will be dictated by the circumstances of the shot) and then he'll break the shot.

2. If he breaks the shot before he's at full extension, nothing bad has happened. He's still indexed on the target he fully intended to put a bullet into. If the bad guy or paper target gets a bullet a fraction of a second earlier than originally intended...well...that's not really a bad thing.

- How would this technique be applicable to 1911 users?

The press out is only taking a fraction of a second if done at speed. The 1911 user would need to learn the appropriate amount of pressure to put on the trigger as they are pressing out to ensure a hit, just as anyone shooting any other platform needs to.

- Did this technique come out of competition shooting (this is pure curiosity as I am aware that many competition-derived techniques have been accepted by tactical community)?

The overall concept of getting the weapon into action as quickly and efficiently as possible is not new. I'm looking right now at Bill Jordan's book, and on page 61 he describes using the trigger from the draw this way:

On each draw the trigger should be pulled starting with the time your hand touches the gun and continuing smoothly as the draw progresses to the pint that the hammer will fall at the exact instant the muzzle first lines up with your target.

Again, you have to consider the way this all plays out in real life. The decision to use lethal force often precedes the actual act of drawing the gun and getting on target. Police officers may often draw a weapon pre-emptively, but just about everyone else is going to be drawing the pistol because they need to shoot somebody. Ideally that somebody would get shot as soon as humanly possible, as whatever action they are taking poses will result in your death or serious injury.

I hope I was able to convey that I am neither critical nor skeptical of this; I am simply trying to learn.

Nothing wrong with questions. You phrased things the right way, making it clear you were looking for information. The site is here to pass along good info....and I'm sure Todd will be along shortly to offer a much better written answer than I gave here.

[Detective_D]

Great answers John....

I just wish our department would have taught us this. We have been taught to press out, but there was no mention of applying pressure to the trigger while pressing out. It is really a great idea. Having trained the press out, it only makes sense that you would start that trigger pull as soon as possible to get rounds down range and on target.

I am kinda like you John, I dont see a violation of safety rules when doing it this way. I just have to start training with this and get up to speed.

Thanks guys.
~D

[John_Wayne777]

Great answers John....

I just wish our department would have taught us this. We have been taught to press out, but there was no mention of applying pressure to the trigger while pressing out. It is really a great idea. Having trained the press out, it only makes sense that you would start that trigger pull as soon as possible to get rounds down range and on target.

I am kinda like you John, I dont see a violation of safety rules when doing it this way. I just have to start training with this and get up to speed.

Thanks guys.
~D

I would pause here and state again that it's something you do when the decision to shoot has already been made before the draw happens...so be careful how you train on it.

[diverge]

I got indexing the front sight from Jerry Barnhart and always used it since then. It helped me from losing the front sight. I was able to get the front sight into the plane with my eyes and the target w/o losing my grip.

Trigger prep helps to shoot faster and your not as likely to slap the trigger. Your shooting before full extension. At the end of your press out there may be a little bounce that can throw off your shot.

[diverge]

Your building muscle memory. That could be a bad thing for some.

[Jay Cunningham]

I would like to give my own take on The Four Rules here.

Some people say The Four Rules are literal. However as rational, thinking individuals who train dynamically with firearms, we know that The Four Rules are not literal - they cannot be and be effective, otherwise we would constantly violate them.

Some instructors who are seemingly wed to certain dogma cannot wrap their brains around more *ahem* modern techniques, because something like trigger prep during a press out violates one of The Four Rules as literally interpreted - therefore, according to their flawed reasoning, the technique itself must be bad and not the fundamentalist reading of The Rules.

Here are *my* Four Rules that I have laid out for myself. They are still the Classic Four Rules, but they are written for the real world:


1. Assume all guns are loaded until you verify that that they are clear.
2. Avoid letting your muzzle cover anything that you are unwilling to shoot.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are indexed on your target.
4. Be sure of your target and consider your target's surroundings.


This is how I have sorted out The Four Rules in my own head. YMMV.

[Alpha Sierra]

I'm looking right now at Bill Jordan's book, and on page 61 he describes using the trigger from the draw this way:

On each draw the trigger should be pulled starting with the time your hand touches the gun and continuing smoothly as the draw progresses to the pint that the hammer will fall at the exact instant the muzzle first lines up with your target.

Not only that, back then (when revolvers were universal police sidearms) duty holsters left the trigger and its guard completely exposed in order to get your finger on the trigger ASAP during the draw stroke.

[diverge]

The four rules are designed so that if you break one then you are covered by the others.

Most people cover themselves when drawing from an IWB holster.

[Alpha Sierra]

The four rules were meant for square range exercises.

When the game is for keeps and the weapon has a more forgiving trigger, deviations from the rules are allowed and encouraged.