LONG GUN AND MOVEMENT CONSIDERATIONS

[zushwa]

Back to the topic. When do we need a long gun?? Do we need one if our vehicle broke down on a rural road and we’re trying to walk to help? Probably not, but are we comfortable leaving it in the vehicle? That also depends. It depends on if you have it in something like a Truck Safe, and what the overall situation is like. If we know it’s only about 10 miles back to somewhere we can get some help then it might be better to leave the rifle and haul ass to a known destination. It’s about probabilities and in this situation, stateside, it’s probably best to leave the long gun. Even with a longer distance (for you truly rural folks) I don't think it changes much.

If the exact same situation happened in Iraq or Afghanistan, you can bet the long gun is coming with. Talking to some coworkers last night we went over every situation we knew of where people had to un-ass a vehicle and most said that at the time they were worried about just getting out and grabbing ANYTHING was second on the priority list. Several made mention of grabbing their bags but burning everything else (including belt feds) in place. I’m not saying if any of these actions are right or wrong only that the situation dictates what we’re going to do.

Another situation might be some kind of natural disaster. For this situation let’s assume we’re ahead of the power curve and a disaster is pending, but hasn’t occurred yet. Some examples might be hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, etc. Often times the routes from a city to a more rural area become clogged. We might just need to make it from our home or business to another “better” location. In this situation we will probably encounter many more people, both good and bad.

Again, is the long gun necessary? Maybe not yet, but I probably wouldn’t want to leave all my guns to be burned in a fire. I’d like to think that even if I don’t need the rifle right now, it might be the only chance I have to keep possession of one.

The next logical “threat” would be the same situations above, but, for whatever reason, we’re in the thick of it or post disaster. Think hurricane Katrina or some of the looting I’ve seen in the Midwest post tornado. In this situation we can expect more social unrest, historically meaning people become more desperate and predatory. Do we need a long gun?? If I’m moving through an area full of people capable of horrible acts for their own self preservation I’m probably even more inclined to move as quickly as possible. I don’t think provoking any actions from people in this type of situation is advisable. What I mean by provoking is giving them any reason (in their eyes) to interact with you. Moving as quickly and quietly as possible seems to, again, be the best answer.

I’m going to stop there because any situations we come up with past this are probably not based on history and might seem a bit “far off” for some. I think the examples we’ve chosen are somewhat realistic and if we discuss these events we probably can get some decent ideas for “end of the world, social breakdown, zombies, et al."

So what are our choices?? Leave the long gun, hide the long gun, take the long gun but have it concealed, take the long gun and look like you’re ready for a fight? Anything else?

[MIKE G]

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[Cameron]

I can't imagine a circumstance that a "Sneaky Bag" and a "Sneaky Rifle Bag" wouldn't be an asset. Walking home (or out) through an urban neighbourhood, or transporting in a vehicle if I had a rifle with me it would be in a Sneaky Bag.

The Sneaky Rifle bag allows you to carry a carbine or even full sized battle rifle in a low profile even covert way, and when you add a Mini Sneaky Bag into the outside pocket that has 6-10 mags you have a full kit in one low pro bag. Obviously not a combat load out but a serviceable way to carry a long arm that can be put into action quickly if needed.

Obviously we should all be carrying a sidearm concealed, and a Sneaky rifle bag slung over your shoulder or beside you in your car would be about the best solution I can imagine, in fact I transport my long arms all the time this way. I have several of the Sneaky Bags that are made to fit a 10.5" SBR all the way up to a full sized battle rifle, if I was bugging out today... I would probably take either an SBR AR15 or a PARA FAL in a Sneaky Bag with 10mags and few extra pistol mags and a trauma kit. A 16" AR in a the medium sized Sneaky Bag is a handy package too.

10.5" AR in small Covert Sneaky Bag, fits fully loaded with a 30 round magazine and an optic.


16" PARA FAL in small covert Sneaky Bag, fits fully loaded with a 20 round magazine and an optic.


16" AR in medium Sneaky Bag, fits fully loaded with a 30 round magazine and an optic.



Here is my bug out load out. Each bag contains:
10.5" SBR AR with 30round mag and EOTech, front pocket has Mini Sneaky Bag with 6 x 30 round mags, 4 x Glock mags, blow out kit.
16" PARA FAL with 20 round mag and EOTech, front pocket has Mini Sneaky Bag with 6 x 20 round mags, 4 x Glock mags, blow out kit.


Either bag could be slung over your shoulder even when wearing a small back pack, or could ride in the passenger's side foot well of your vehicle.

If the situation requires a more immediate state of preparedness, the Mini Sneaky bag is slung over the shoulder and secured with the waste strap so that reloads are accessible in a fight.



Cameron

[rob_s]

One of the reasons I posted the two guns I did on the last page is because what your reasoning for wanting a rifle is are going to be different for everyone. The M4 is something that can be pressed into service as a feeding tool but is more suited to a defensive role, and the M6 is something that offers a very wide range of game that can be taken, but may be very tough to use for defense.

So are we talking primarily defense, or food?

[MIKE G]

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[zushwa]

I like a couple of the bags, but damn that's a bunch of shit. Even a small 3 day pack would make that loadout somewhat cumbersome. I'm sure you'll argue that it won't, and you may have a shit ton of experience moving with that much kit, but it won't be as fast as without some of it. I suspect for the average reader of this forum that extra ~15 pounds of kit would take its toll.

As I said in the beginning, I'm just trying t get people to think REALISTICALLY about what circumstances they might find themselves in, and prioritize what gear needs to go. I'm not saying one way is right or wrong. I think across the board, if you haven't had the "opportunity" to move several (think 5-20) miles with all your gear, while being chased, and trying to maintain a low profile, you should. The being chased part might reserved for cool schools and down range, but adding the sense of urgency might just make it more realistic.

It's just hard for me to agree that EVERY circumstance we're discussing MUST have an m4 and a bunch of mags. I know it's M4C and all, but I don't think it's a requirement. For the record I'm in the "if I have a chance to have a long gun, I will" crowd, but I'm also a bit more pragmatic in my thinking that it's always the best choice. I'm certainly not in the crowd that thinks "gun first" for most applications. I'd rather worry about things like "shoes first" since I wear flipflops about 350 days a year.

[rob_s]

I agree, that is a ****load of crap. and with no other supplies other than ammo and a gun. I have one of those mini Sneaky shoulder bags I find it to start digging into the should with nothing much more than 2-3 AR mags after a couple of hours.

Food for thought in the gun department

Kel-Tec SU16C (supposedly can be fired folded)




Kel-Tech SU16CA




Kel-Tech SU16D12 (12" barrel, if you don't mind going NFA)

[Mac5.56]

I don't know if it is something in the water in Wyoming, but I was always raised with preparedness drilled into me, and the question of SHTF collapse not being an if, but a when. Do I agree that I will see it in my life? No, but that doesn't mean it wasn't part of my culture.

I will be honest I got into the M4 because I wanted to add it to my survival kit, I learned about it later. I chose it for several reasons if you want me to list them later I will. But to answer your question if I am bugging out on foot, or in a car yes it will be coming with me 100%. Here is my environment:

I live less then 70 miles from the largest urban center in the U.S. (NYC), and am on a direct evac route from the city. There is a nuclear power plant 50 miles south of me that is in horrible shape (has been for years), and it is possible that a meltdown may take place, plus it is a big friggen target. My entire area is a big friggen target. I live on the first "rural" exit off the throughway. My town is full of racial, socio-economic, and drug fueled tension. My town will become a refugee camp if there is ever an evac from the city, and I am willing to bet my life on the fact that Katrina style looting and violence is a given.

So we will be bugging out, we know where, and we know how. My rifle will be coming with me in my pack and will not be deployed in a threatening way until I am safely out of the population centers. This is because I am willing to bet that the visible deployment of any firearm in my town would result in the carrier being shot. The officers in my area have a very shoot first ask questions later attitude. Usually it is with a taser or pepper spray, but I have no doubt they would employ the same tactic with their side arms given the above situation. Also my town has a law in place that the transport of any firearms during a "state of emergency" is forbidden. I sh@t you not, it's on the books.

Why the long gun? My plan has always been to evac before problems arise, and the location has always been an area of natural wild land that I have been familiar with (no matter where I have lived). I am more comfortable, and capable in the natural environment then most, and I feel safest when I am in it and away from people. The long gun offers me versatility in this environment. It offers me the ability to engage targets at ranges beyond the average joe with a pistol can hit, thus limiting my need for human contact (ie I am able to address parties verbally outside of 50 yards to determine their intent). While the caliber isn't the best hunting round, for the game in my area it is more then enough to provide food as well. The M4 also isn't so "long" that it is un-wieldy in close situations (obviously).

Can I transport it and ammunition? You bet. I have been hiking my whole life, and my pack is actually designed so that I can add the extra 15 pounds. I do actually train in this environment with a pack in order to be sure of this. The rest of the gear in the two packs (mine and my fiances) are as critical to our survival as well. The way I look at it is I could bug out for a long enough time period to avoid any massive social un-rest for a long enough period with my set up that I could outlast the length of typical immediate breakdowns of infrastructure (IE Katrina ext).

Hope that is clear.

[Mac5.56]

and Cameron I know you know your stuff but I have to say that if I saw you huffing up a trail with that bag, plus the small bag, plus a bug out bag I would have to chuckle to myself.

Not directed at you, but my fiance and I after reading the thread "how many mags for a SHTF" have started to refer to the firearm heavy bug-outers as "supply trucks, and gold mines".

[BAC]

One of the reasons I posted the two guns I did on the last page is because what your reasoning for wanting a rifle is are going to be different for everyone. The M4 is something that can be pressed into service as a feeding tool but is more suited to a defensive role, and the M6 is something that offers a very wide range of game that can be taken, but may be very tough to use for defense.

So are we talking primarily defense, or food?

Bugging anywhere in 24-48 hours to me means no hunting. No fishing kit, no snares, likely no fires, etc. Since a couple energy bars, a bottle of water, etc., is the most that I'm putting in a "day or two, tops" kit, that eliminates the "hunting" purpose for carrying a log gun. I think that probably applies to most of us, except those living in bear country.

My biggest question is: under what circumstances would we realistically be traveling on foot with a long gun? In-CONUS, the only reason I can think of to be moving on foot with a long gun would be because I don't want to leave it in a disabled vehicle (meaning I have time and opportunity to grab the rifle). Carrying a rifle in a bag means you probably can't get it out quick; pulling the rifle most likely means preparing for a fight, not reacting to one having already started, so the defensive purpose of carrying a rifle is already pretty limited.

As part of a neighborhood patrol, as was seen in Katrina, having the long gun out and slung is prudent; you're walking the neighborhood protecting your community, and you're most likely with a few others with at least one more gun of some kind. As part of a home & property protection lineup, a long gun is king (early '90s LA riots). But generally speaking, due to the complications of "bugging" with a long gun, it's hard for me to imagine a circumstance that would cause us to consistently include long guns in our "bug out" or "bug home" preps outside of a decision not to leave the weapon in a vehicle.

Edit: I guess that's a longer way of saying "I agree with Josh."


-B