Followthrough discussion

[zushwa]

Note the trigger discipline: brass is still in the air (by the right sleeve) and the finger is already along the frame.

Are you sure that's a good thing?? It seems to me if he is that quick to be off the trigger he isn't doing a good job of following through or scanning. With some shooters this is because of range-itis and an over emphasis on perceived safety. In reality now he has to start all over on the trigger squeeze to shoot again, if need be. I don't know about you, but I feel much safer being willing and able to shoot again quickly and accurately while I'm still on the target. I was taught that no matter how many shots, you always prepare to shoot one more. The shooting sequence isn't complete until you acquire another sight picture and you are prepared to break another shot.

From a teaching perspective his lack of follow through could lead to (or be the current cause of) problems with shot placement and consistency. He may even have some problems with split times, depending on how he manipulates his trigger finger during multiple targets.

Granted, this is one picture of one drill on one day, so I'm not trying to call the shooter out. What I am saying is that commending someone on an open forum for something that might not necessarily be a good thing needs to be discussed.

Comments??

[Byron]

If I recall correctly, it was due to the nature of the drill we were running. Not that Todd required it, but rather that the drill had set parameters of shots fired, cycles, etc. In my observation, JW77777777777 did not have issues with follow-through, scanning, or anything like that.

It's not as if he was taking his finger off the trigger every time he fired a shot trough the class. Check out the image he used in his AAR (first post). His sights are on target, brass is in the air, and his finger is still on the trigger. The difference is simple: the situation called for different things from the student.

Same here:

[rob_s]

If I recall correctly, it was due to the nature of the drill we were running. Not that Todd required it, but rather that the drill had set parameters of shots fired, cycles, etc.

Not to put words in Josh's mouth but I think that was kind of his point about drills with prescribed shots. It's something I never really thought about myself until recently.

An exaggerated example of this is when you see guys in a hurry to "unload and show clear" at the end of a drill or stage. A lesser example is guys that "come off the gun" quickly after shooting drills with the carbine. What Josh is describing is an example of being quick to "come off the gun" with a handgun when a drill calls for "5 shots to the brain" (or whatever) and the student firing five shots and jumping back to finger-off-the-trigger, low-ready before the last brass has hit the ground.

I don't think Josh was being critical of the student or the instructor, I think he was just using a still image as a talking point to discuss something that may or may not have been happening.

[zushwa]

Not to put words in Josh's mouth but I think that was kind of his point about drills with prescribed shots. It's something I never really thought about myself until recently.

An exaggerated example of this is when you see guys in a hurry to "unload and show clear" at the end of a drill or stage. A lesser example is guys that "come off the gun" quickly after shooting drills with the carbine. What Josh is describing is an example of being quick to "come off the gun" with a handgun when a drill calls for "5 shots to the brain" (or whatever) and the student firing five shots and jumping back to finger-off-the-trigger, low-ready before the last brass has hit the ground.

I don't think Josh was being critical of the student or the instructor, I think he was just using a still image as a talking point to discuss something that may or may not have been happening.

Yep....

[Robb Jensen]

"Remember to get the gun into the fight be very quick, but don't fast when taking the gun out of the fight"--Chris Costa (Magpul Dynamics)

[rob_s]

I'm not sure this is a "scan and asses" issue, but I think the idea that doing one thing for a drill that's just a drill and another thing that's for a drill with a "fighting" intent is kind of the point.

[Byron]

OK, I guess in reading I focused in too much on the 'scanning' statement and not enough on the follow through concern. I agree that follow through is always necessary and my photo caption was not meant to downplay that aspect of shooting. I will edit it so that I am not giving the wrong impression to newer shooters.

[John_Wayne777]

Are you sure that's a good thing?? It seems to me if he is that quick to be off the trigger he isn't doing a good job of following through or scanning. With some shooters this is because of range-itis and an over emphasis on perceived safety. In reality now he has to start all over on the trigger squeeze to shoot again, if need be. I don't know about you, but I feel much safer being willing and able to shoot again quickly and accurately while I'm still on the target. I was taught that no matter how many shots, you always prepare to shoot one more. The shooting sequence isn't complete until you acquire another sight picture and you are prepared to break another shot.

The pic appears to have been taken at the conclusion of my last run on the FAST drill....a drill with a prescribed number of shots. When I mentally realize that I'm not shooting, my finger goes straight. That's what you're seeing in the picture. It's a drill with 6 shots, I've fired my last shot, I'm not shooting anymore, finger straight. You can see the same process in the other picture where I'm lefty, there is brass in the air, and my finger is straight. That was also the last shot on that drill. Mentally I've realized that I'm done shooting because I have all my hits, so it's finger straight.

From a teaching perspective his lack of follow through could lead to (or be the current cause of) problems with shot placement and consistency. He may even have some problems with split times, depending on how he manipulates his trigger finger during multiple targets.

I don't take my finger off the trigger for every shot. Just when I'm done shooting. What you're seeing in the picture is the instant right after I've finished the drill. The finger is straight and the weapon is coming down out of the line of sight because I'm in the process of putting it back into the holster.

Granted, this is one picture of one drill on one day, so I'm not trying to call the shooter out. What I am saying is that commending someone on an open forum for something that might not necessarily be a good thing needs to be discussed.

Comments??

It's a contextual thing. The picture doesn't show the whole context of what was going on.

You can ask any of the guys I've been on the line with at various Vickers courses or my fellow students at the recent Blackwater class I attended, and they'll tell you that I'm often one of the last guys back in the holster. Generally I set up for a followup shot, decide I don't need it, bring the weapon back to a sort of high ready and then scan and assess before reholstering in a slow and deliberate manner. (Striker fired handgun with a ~ 5 pound trigger and no manual safety)

In this class I approached things differently because I was trying to do something entirely different. It was a skills class and after every string of fire I was looking at my shots and replaying the string in my head to see what I had done right, what I had done wrong, etc. As a result I was consciously trying to omit my usual routine...although on several occasions I was going through it anyway.

[zushwa]

The pic appears to have been taken at the conclusion of my last run on the FAST drill....a drill with a prescribed number of shots. When I mentally realize that I'm not shooting, my finger goes straight. That's what you're seeing in the picture. It's a drill with 6 shots, I've fired my last shot, I'm not shooting anymore, finger straight. You can see the same process in the other picture where I'm lefty, there is brass in the air, and my finger is straight. That was also the last shot on that drill. Mentally I've realized that I'm done shooting because I have all my hits, so it's finger straight.



I don't take my finger off the trigger for every shot. Just when I'm done shooting. What you're seeing in the picture is the instant right after I've finished the drill. The finger is straight and the weapon is coming down out of the line of sight because I'm in the process of putting it back into the holster.



It's a contextual thing. The picture doesn't show the whole context of what was going on.

You can ask any of the guys I've been on the line with at various Vickers courses or my fellow students at the recent Blackwater class I attended, and they'll tell you that I'm often one of the last guys back in the holster. Generally I set up for a followup shot, decide I don't need it, bring the weapon back to a sort of high ready and then scan and assess before reholstering in a slow and deliberate manner. (Striker fired handgun with a ~ 5 pound trigger and no manual safety)

In this class I approached things differently because I was trying to do something entirely different. It was a skills class and after every string of fire I was looking at my shots and replaying the string in my head to see what I had done right, what I had done wrong, etc. As a result I was consciously trying to omit my usual routine...although on several occasions I was going through it anyway.

Just so we're clear, I'm not bagging on you dude. You can probably shoot better than me (that can be confirmed by plenty of guys on this forum too), but the picture, combined with the caption, has started an interesting discussion so I'll continue it.

First, getting away from a known good technique sounds strange to me. I'm all for being open minded and expanding the toolbox but "typically" fundamentals don't change.

Second, no matter the context of the photo, it doesn't lie, and you've confirmed that you weren't following through in that drill. It would be VERY hard for me to believe that you were prepared to shoot the next shot, decided not to do so, all within the brass being that close to the gun. I'm glad you've cleared up the confusion and aren't trying to say you did follow through in that photo, on that drill.

Like I said, I just don't want new/inexperienced/untrained shooters seeing something on the internet, mimicking it, and picking up bad habits.

Thanks for the good discussion.

[John_Wayne777]

Just so we're clear, I'm not bagging on you dude.

No worries.

First, getting away from a known good technique sounds strange to me. I'm all for being open minded and expanding the toolbox but "typically" fundamentals don't change.

I'm not sure what you're referring to there. By "getting away from a known good technique" do you mean deliberately not doing my usual followthrough routine? I'll stress that it was something I decided to forgo in this course, not a permanent change to my SOP. Even though I didn't want to do it in this course I still found myself doing the FS&A out of reflex on many occasions.

Second, no matter the context of the photo, it doesn't lie, and you've confirmed that you weren't following through in that drill. It would be VERY hard for me to believe that you were prepared to shoot the next shot, decided not to do so, all within the brass being that close to the gun. I'm glad you've cleared up the confusion and aren't trying to say you did follow through in that photo, on that drill.

Indeed I wasn't prepared to fire another shot...because the drill was over. There were no more shots to fire. It was six total shots...two to the head card, reload, four to the 8" circle.

In the lefty pic things are a bit different...the drill was to get two hits, not just two shots on that target...and you can see that in that shot the weapon is still at eye level while the brass is still in the air. I was ready to take another shot an instant before the photo because I thought I might have pushed one high enough to miss the A zone and would need another shot. Turns out I didn't...so finger straight.

The speed at which that is happening can seem a bit disconcerting, but mentally I'm thinking "I'm done.", meaning I see that I've accomplished whatever I need to accomplish here (or, alternately, I've failed miserably but I don't get any makeup shots) and don't need to shoot anymore...so finger straight. The finger going straight is linked with the recognition that the weapon no longer needs to be fired or that I have to do something else other than shoot in the immediate future like reload or move. The way I've always been trained is that when you're about to do anything with the gun that isn't actually firing a shot, you get your finger off the trigger before doing anything else....be that a reload, a malfunction clear, moving, or just putting it back into the holster.

Like I said, I just don't want new/inexperienced/untrained shooters seeing something on the internet, mimicking it, and picking up bad habits.

Proper followthrough is something folks should develop. As I noted before, my SOP is to set up for a followup shot, mentally say "I don't need to shoot anymore", then finger straight, bring the weapon to some sort of ready position, then S&A. In real life if you're shooting at a bad guy you won't know how many shots you need to fire ahead of time, and you won't know when the threat is going to end ahead of time...so if I've just put four rounds into a dude I shouldn't be in a hurry to get myself out of fighting mode.

It's a lot easier to say "I don't need to shoot that anymore" when you're dealing with paper targets than when you're dealing with a real bad guy.