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Thread: AR15 SBR measurment...

  1. #11
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    Great place here and lots of good info as well !!

  2. #12
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    I put the collapsed length on all of my Form 1s. The overall length is just another criteria to determine if it is an SBR along with barrel length. But once it's an SBR based on the barrel length, what does it matter if the overall length you put in is extended or collapsed?
    We must not believe the Evil One when he tells us that there is nothing we can do in the face of violence, injustice and sin. - Pope Francis I

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireglock View Post
    Basically what Jer said. An over-zealous LEO at the range, Customs uses the range I go to, and then ATF gets involved looking at things. I want my 2K investment as clean and safe from mis-interpretations as possible. Plus I asked a few folks here whose opinion I respect and collapsed was the answer I got. That all makes me feel "safer".
    As someone said in the other thread, the method of measuring OAL described in the Federal regs says the length between the "extreme ends" of the firearm. That is plain language, not open to any "interpretation," in my opinion.

    The fact is that a 10" barreled AR with its buttstock collapsed is no more or less a short-barreled rifle than a gun with a 2" barrel and a 20 foot buttstock. There are no "degrees" of SBR rifle. It either is or isn't.

    The desription listed on the form is for identification, period, and unless there is some problem matching the serial number on the gun to that on the form, the physical description will never be an issue.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlosDJackal View Post
    I put the collapsed length on all of my Form 1s. The overall length is just another criteria to determine if it is an SBR along with barrel length. But once it's an SBR based on the barrel length, what does it matter if the overall length you put in is extended or collapsed?
    Overall length is only mentioned in the legal definition of a firearm made from a rifle. Because a rifle is defined as a firearm made and designed to be fired from the shoulder, ie. a firearm with a buttstock, a weapon without a buttstock must meet a minimum OAL, regardless of it's barrel length.

    The legal definition for a SBR, a short-barreled rifle with a buttstock, does not include OAL as a defining characteristic. So, you're right, it doesn't matter.

  5. #15
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    The correct answer is extended.

    The BATFE considers the overall length, of a rifle/shotgun with a folding &/or collapsible stock, measured with the stock extended. State and local agencies may have a different definition(s), but we are talking about filling out a federal form so we would go with the federal definition.

    NFA Handbook E-Pub 5320.8 Revised April 2009.
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/index.htm

    Section 2.1.5 Any Other Weapon
    On page 9 they give a good example.

    "NOTE: One version of the Marble’s Game Getter was produced with 18-inch barrels and a folding shoulder stock. This model of the Game Getter, as manufactured, is not subject to the provisions of the NFA because it has barrels that are 18 inches in length and the overall length of the firearm, with stock extended, is more than 26 inches. However, if the shoulder stock has been removed from the 18-inch barrel version of the Game Getter, the firearm has an overall length of less than 26 inches and is an NFA weapon. Specifically, the firearm is classified as a weapon made from a rifle/shotgun."

    As others have pointed out, it doesn’t really matter as we are discussing the form in reference to a rifle with a barrel less than 16in. A rifle subject to NFA can be one of two things; a "rifle" or a "weapon made from a rifle". Section 2.1.3 states “A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length” notice it does not say anything about overall length. Overall length only comes into play for weapons made from a rifle in section 2.1.4.

    Again the correct answer is extended.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by decodeddiesel View Post
    If some LEO looking for his Jr. G-man badge decides to make a stink about my SBR to the point where he has seen my stamp, and yet continues to harass me, well guess what that is? Harassment. You do have rights you know, and if some cop decided to violate those rights by harassing me over something totally legal then he is in the wrong and he will pay for the mistake.

    I would file a formal complaint against him, then talk to a lawyer about a lawsuit. You filed the Form 1 in accordance with Federal Regulations regarding NFA items. You have an approved tax stamp to posses that SBR from the BATFE. Everything else is minutia.
    I'm with you, but a lot of people have a lot of grief by being right with the wrong guy.
    Peace, Jerry

    I don't drink the koolaid

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_556 View Post
    Overall length only comes into play for weapons made from a rifle in section 2.1.4.
    Somehow I suspect shortening down an AR-15 falls into being "made from a rifle". If that's the case I doubt you get credit for the extended length when it can be made shorter.

    "2.1.4 Weapon made from a rifle. A weapon made from a rifle is a rifle type weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore."

    Now I really don't care what you put in the section for OAL, and I really hope you never find out which is right under the wrong circumstances, but I'm willing to bet that the only length they care about is how short the rifle is or can be.

    But to each his own.
    Peace, Jerry

    I don't drink the koolaid

  8. #18
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    Disregard.
    Last edited by decodeddiesel; 09-04-09 at 18:42.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireglock View Post
    I'm with you, but a lot of people have a lot of grief by being right with the wrong guy.
    That is very true. The bottom line is that if you have done your part, and have the tax stamp in hand, then the law is on your side period.

    Formal complaints of harassment are taken very seriously by Law Enforcement agencies.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireglock View Post
    Somehow I suspect shortening down an AR-15 falls into being "made from a rifle". If that's the case I doubt you get credit for the extended length when it can be made shorter.

    But to each his own.
    Section 2.1.3 Rifle.
    There are two key sentences in this paragraph
    (1) "A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder"
    (2) "A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length."

    The AR15 we are talking about has a stock, and is designed to be fired from the shoulder; it is a rifle.

    A weapon made from a rifle is no longer intended to be fired from the shoulder. However even if "you" decide the definition of "a weapon made from a rifle" is more appropriate lets look at the example given in Section 2.1.5. Pay special attention to the bold text, and especially the red text.

    "This model of the Game Getter, as manufactured, is not subject to the provisions of the NFA because it has barrels that are 18 inches in length and the overall length of the firearm, with stock extended, is more than 26 inches. However, if the shoulder stock has been removed from the 18-inch barrel version of the Game Getter, the firearm has an overall length of less than 26 inches and is an NFA weapon. Specifically, the firearm is classified as a weapon made from a rifle/shotgun."

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