AR's as sniper/tactical rifles?

[SethB]

All of the training I have had (open courses with great instructors) has indicated that Hoplophile is correct. Especially where pistol rounds are concerned.

[fly223]

I was reading a magazine I forgot what one but I herd that some police swat teams or special units in the police force will be going to the new 6.8 in an ar-15 as there sniper rifle. They said it's more knock down power then a 223 and less kick then a 308 whick is true. Anyone know if any departments had started making them yet?



From,
Joe....

[KevinB]

I was reading a magazine I forgot what one but I herd that some police swat teams or special units in the police force will be going to the new 6.8 in an ar-15 as there sniper rifle. They said it's more knock down power then a 223 and less kick then a 308 whick is true. Anyone know if any departments had started making them yet?



From,
Joe....

My English and Grammar is not the best, but I find it hard to read the above.

slight corection made to improve readability.

I was reading a magazine, I have forgotten which. I read an article that some police SWAT teams or special units in the police force will be going to the new 6.8 AR15 as their sniper rifle. The arrticle claimed more knock down power than a .223, and less kick then a 308. Anyone know if any departments had started buying them yet?

Dont believe most of what you read in gun rags. However, DocGKR gave an excellent explantion previously in this thread, and I "beleive" one or two posters here has knowledge of a LE dept using 6.8 platforms.

[sinister]

Gents, arguments about what type of rifle may come down to what your department's guidelines might be (qualification, sustainment, and currency, and agency buy policy).

The arguments can go on for days. If you work for a department that requires a factory-built / no-modification or light modification rifle (to accomodate height, length-of-pull, etc.), or if you can shoot only agency-bought weapons then your choices may narrow down to something like a 308 Remington 700, Winchester 70, or Savage 110.

If you work for a big department with large tax base (say like Fairfax, Virginia) they may be able to afford something more exotic (read expensive), but the gadgetry won't make the individual officer a better shooter.

If the officer is fortunate (or unfortunate) enough that he is allowed to use whatever he thinks is the best, the limits come down to what the officer thinks he can afford and shoot the best with the time he is allowed to practice or thinks he can spare.

If the sniper ever fails to kill a bad guy (righteous shot by rules for deadly force) and an innocent life is lost because of a failure of training, certification, or for whatever reason due to a privately-owned system, woe to him if a suing party goes on expedition.

A military guy would consider METT-T (Mission-Enemy-Troops or gear available-Terrain-and Time). No single weapon or device meets all needs, but you have to train to what you think your highest mission use set might be. Soldiers will probably be shooting at lots of bad guys jinking and running. Cops probably won't (not saying the possibility might never come up).

A game warden will need something different than a high threat warrant service team.

Never been a cop -- just my 2 cents from a Soldier's viewpoint.

[K.L. Davis]

Gents, arguments about what type of rifle may come down to what your department's guidelines might be (qualification, sustainment, and currency, and agency buy policy).

The arguments can go on for days. If you work for a department that requires a factory-built / no-modification or light modification rifle (to accomodate height, length-of-pull, etc.), or if you can shoot only agency-bought weapons then your choices may narrow down to something like a 308 Remington 700, Winchester 70, or Savage 110.

If you work for a big department with large tax base (say like Fairfax, Virginia) they may be able to afford something more exotic (read expensive), but the gadgetry won't make the individual officer a better shooter.

If the officer is fortunate (or unfortunate) enough that he is allowed to use whatever he thinks is the best, the limits come down to what the officer thinks he can afford and shoot the best with the time he is allowed to practice or thinks he can spare.

If the sniper ever fails to kill a bad guy (righteous shot by rules for deadly force) and an innocent life is lost because of a failure of training, certification, or for whatever reason due to a privately-owned system, woe to him if a suing party goes on expedition.

A military guy would consider METT-T (Mission-Enemy-Troops or gear available-Terrain-and Time). No single weapon or device meets all needs, but you have to train to what you think your highest mission use set might be. Soldiers will probably be shooting at lots of bad guys jinking and running. Cops probably won't (not saying the possibility might never come up).

A game warden will need something different than a high threat warrant service team.

Never been a cop -- just my 2 cents from a Soldier's viewpoint.

From my post on the first page of this:

<-- That is West

This is East -->

The original question was about a stateside, civil service, LEO's role -- so far all of the anecdotal rebutal has been .mil related stuff.

Before Carlos passed, he and I had a few long conversations about the difference between .mil and LE shooters... I am onboard with his feelings that there is a distinct difference between the two and one should exercise great caution in applying the learned discipline from one side to the other. A few here may be more qualified than Carlos to argue this feeling and I will concede that all are more qualified than I -- therefore, I shall just keep quiet on this one.

We are collecting all of the orignal "Long Shot" publications and scanning them into PDF format, all of them will be posted on the Snipers Armory website -- one article that I do recall was a lengthy discussion with Carlos and others about the differences between a .mil and LE shooter. Good reading, and an eye opener for a lot of folks, but your post is pretty much lockstep with what others think... we just examine it in more detail, policy and CYA steps.

Good to see you over here by the way...

[nyeti]

Sorry to get in late on this, I just saw it.

This is interesting, because I am in process on an article on just this subject. Here is my take. For a pure hostage scenario I like a sub .05 (consistantly) .308. My guys use Suppresed Tac Ops Tango 51's. I like an AR with optics for support on this. To deal with barriers-two shooters per target-period. For a majority of police operations, the precision AR is a great tool. I have deployed them with great success for many years on the street, not in training scenarios.

The AR's come into their own when supporting patrol operations and deployed to fast moving, "right now" scenarios. They are usually deployed within 50 yards, and sometimes indoors (we have numerous buildings that offer several hundred yard indoor shots). The AR is easier to use from "unconventional" positions, they are far easier to run multiple shots and I have found them to be easier to track movers with (others may differ on this). The lack of penetration by the 5.56 is often times a plus for dealing with hostage takers, or crowded scenarios. My sources at a major Socal agency that issues their snipers both 5.56 and 7.62 sniper rifles has never seen a 5.56 exit a suspects skull when shot in the head. This is not always the case with 7.62.

Another issue is familiarity. For agencies that have a bunch of AR's in patrol, having a few AR's set up for precision work is a good thing. I prefer doing entry work with a 12ga., so when I deployed an AR, I wanted an accurate one because I was using it for perimeter security. It allows for distance to be your friend out to justifiable shot distance (which is not all that far in urban metropolitan areas). I actually ran an AR with a TA01 ACOG during the last precison rifle instructor course I attended and took second in the class amongst a bunch of very skilled police marksman. The key was the class was totally geared around realistic LE scenarios, and not a revamped military course.

If you look at the success our military folks have had with DMR's , SPR's, etc overseas, then we should look at this as a guide for the areas where AR based systems will work for LE folks in urban areas, and what areas are left to bolt guns. Several former 8541's I know now prefer a semi-auto highly accurized .308 and a .338 Lapua mag bolt gun for the "real" sniper work-read 500 plus yards-as the set up they would want in todays world.

Lets look at availability. You want an AR in the trunk, or a bolt gun on the SWAT truck a couple hours away or the armory. The flat reality is that many well set up AR's can be built to conform to a "patrol rifle" standard and carried in a manner where they are with the officer at all times during a shift. Most agencies do not allow their bolt guns to be carried like this (our guys keep them in locked Pelican cases on the SWAT van, and only the sniper asigned to that gun has a key............as it should be). For most scenarios, the precision AR will be a good choice, and can certainly fill the gap till the bolt guns arrive, and then provide support for the true sniper rifles.

[GastonG-NoVa]

Our LE sharpshooters train as close as 10 feet, but 25-50 yards is the normal practice range.

These guys are "city snipers". They do go out once a month and do some 100, 200, and 300 yard stuff as well.

G