AR's as sniper/tactical rifles?

[Robb Jensen]

An autoloader will never be as mechanically accurate as a bolt gun.

Your statement is illogical. All I have to show you is 1 autoloader that's more accurate than 1 bolt gun and your theory is debunked. I think you mean bolt guns are inherently more accurate not always 'mechanically more accurate'.

This Noveske upper shoots 0.36" groups at 100yds using 75gr BH.



This 700 was tuned by Precision Weapons at Quantico and shoots 0.52" at 100yds with 175gr BH. PW blueprinted it, lapped the bolt, put a new barrel lug in it, did a trigger job and glass bedded it.

[K.L. Davis]

As usual, DocGKR has some good dope...

I am the founder of the American Special Operations Sniper Association, which grew to the point that I had to hand things off to what is now ASA, they opened things up a little more as far as membership and you should give ASA and snipersonline a look... lots of good info over there.

Feel free to contact me if you like... I doubt that I really know any more than most of the people here, but there are some considerations that apply to your position and job that need worked out.

[bigbore]

Your statement is illogical.

Your 100yd AR proves it

I believe you shot a 0.36" group, but I know it does not happen consistantly.

If accuracy is your concern, and you are going for 1 MOA out to 1000yds. you want a bolt gun. If you understood what even happens when a round is automatically chambering in a rifle you'd see what I mean.

If your world doesnt go past 100yds, and you dont have experience shooting past 100yds, an AR is more than "good enough".

[K.L. Davis]

Your 100yd AR proves it

If accuracy is your concern, and you are going for 1 MOA out to 1000yds. you want a bolt gun. If you understood what even happens when a round is automatically chambering in a rifle you'd see what I mean.

If your world doesnt go past 100yds, and you dont have experience shooting past 100yds, an AR is more than "good enough".

Steve is on the target (as long as the puns are going... why not)

A gas gun can be very, very accurate, but the turn bolts eliminate some variables that are a concern at long ranges -- as I am sure you know, the "first round off the top" can be like a CCB shot from hell with some guns, which is a big concern. The shooters technique can help over come the wayward tendencies of that round to some exent, but still a variable that can be eliminated with a different platform.

Also noted when doing very long range work with a magazine fed gun is that the shooter can often tell which side of the magazine a shot loaded from, as they do impact slightly different in some guns -- granted, we are talking subMOA variation, but yet another "feature" of the platform.

How germane is this to the world of an LE shooter? A little and a lot... depends on too many things to make one blanket statement on an internet forum and pretend that all the bases are covered.

[yrac]

Steve is on the target (as long as the puns are going... why not)

A gas gun can be very, very accurate, but the turn bolts eliminate some variables that are a concern at long ranges -- as I am sure you know, the "first round off the top" can be like a CCB shot from hell with some guns, which is a big concern. The shooters technique can help over come the wayward tendencies of that round to some exent, but still a variable that can be eliminated with a different platform.

Also noted when doing very long range work with a magazine fed gun is that the shooter can often tell which side of the magazine a shot loaded from, as they do impact slightly different in some guns -- granted, we are talking subMOA variation, but yet another "feature" of the platform.

How germane is this to the world of an LE shooter? A little and a lot... depends on too many things to make one blanket statement on an internet forum and pretend that all the bases are covered.

Perhaps K.L., KevinB, bigbore or others can provide some insight into the durability of bolt guns vs. autos as well? I think, as with most things, this thread is probably going to show that there's a right tool for each job. Maybe the gas guns are a better choice for closer range ("close" being a relative term for these rifles) engagements or when rapid followup is needed (sort of a "general purpose" precision gun), and maybe the bolt guns start to win out when we get into issues of extreme range and extreme durability requirements (a bit more specialized)? I think each platform has its place in the precision arena, they just fall into different parts of the spectrum.

[KevinB]

Tool in the tool box...

Some of our guys supporting the 101st went thru over 1000rds of 750gr AMAX in two days with the MacMillan Tac-50 and BR can (one gun on the team). I have no experience with the newer Barrett's but I know our old ones would not have survived.

[Hoplophile]

I think, as with most things, this thread is probably going to show that there's a right tool for each job. Maybe the gas guns are a better choice for closer range ("close" being a relative term for these rifles) engagements or when rapid followup is needed (sort of a "general purpose" precision gun),

In a thread over on arfcom about the KAC .308 rifle being used by USMC snipers, it was mentioned that shooters with the semi were getting something like 4 times the kills. If there's a team of 4 or 5 hadjis setting up a mortar and you use a bolt gun you can get one with your first shot and maybe one of the others as they run away. But with the semi they can get most or all of them.

That's kind of a specific use that doesn't apply to most people, but it is an advantage of the semi over the bolt action.

[KevinB]

My old 5.56mm sniper rig

[Robb Jensen]

Nice setup KevinB. Is that on OpsInc can?

Let's also not forget SimplyDynamics somewhat 'precision' AR used out to 650 meters in Al Najaf. I've talked to him a little about that day a few times and he did say that he wished he had a .308 that day if he could do it again because the weaker stopping power of the 5.56mm at that distance, but he didn't complain about the ARs accuracy. Here's a small portion of the video.



His AR had a 20" Gov't profile barrel and he consistantly hit human sized targets in semi-rapid fire at that distance.

Semper Fi, Travis, see you when you get back stateside, we can shoot some real USPSA and 3-gun together instead of that Open 10, Limited 10 shit you have there.

[K.L. Davis]

<-- That is West

This is East -->

The original question was about a stateside, civil service, LEO's role -- so far all of the anecdotal rebutal has been .mil related stuff.

Before Carlos passed, he and I had a few long conversations about the difference between .mil and LE shooters... I am onboard with his feelings that there is a distinct difference between the two and one should exercise great caution in applying the learned discipline from one side to the other. A few here may be more qualified than Carlos to argue this feeling and I will concede that all are more qualified than I -- therefore, I shall just keep quiet on this one.