AR's as sniper/tactical rifles?

[KevinB]

Nope not OPSINC -- I was not cool enough to get one...
It is the Diemaco C7CT - the package comes with a 3-12 S&B and a Aze Utra suppressor (they are Finnish -- it took 6 months to get cans out of the US for the CF -- so only so procured OPSINC, or KAC etc. cans was not the fastest method). I took the S&B off since we got it for deployment and I used a Leupold M3LR until I grew familiar with the S&B (now I love them...)
My own personal feeling are that a AR system in 5.56mm/6.8SPC or 7.62mm NATO makes a good spotter weapon or DM system.


Like Mr. Davis I am not a LE sniper, while I have LE course I would suggest that does not give me a great deal of insight into the actual deployment workings.

[Eagle1*]

Thanks for all of the replies. I am thinking of getting an AR for the tactical/snipers role! Just do not know if the 308 is going to out weigh the 223 for me and my dept. Thanks..

[DocGKR]

Eagle1*,

I'll again re-iterate my previous comment:

Although .223 can deliver outstanding accuracy, even out to 1000 yards, it is generally a poor choice for most law enforcement designated marksman duties due to it’s inferior incapacitation potential, especially beyond 200 yards and if intermediate obstacles are present. In general, .223 bullets offer the WORST terminal performance after penetrating glass intermediate barriers compared to many other common carbine/rifle calibers...

You want to use .223 for a carbine--great; but for a sniper role where the ability to reach through intermediate barriers is critical, get a LARGER caliber.

[CapnCrunch]

I agree wholeheartedly with Kevin. The platform is more than adequate for a spotter/sniper support rifle.

I'm especially digging the 6.8 for that particular application.

[Robb Jensen]

So are we talking LE sniper or 1000yds sniper? Isn't the average LE sniper shots something like 90yds or under?

If we're talking 1000yds or further yes .308 is better, .50 better still, or as my brother an AF TACP says AC130 Spectres' or B-2, B-52 Bombers BEST!

[DocGKR]

gotM4,

Did you READ my post on page 1 of this thread discussing LE sniper statistics, including averge shot distance?

ASA data of 219 sniper incidents over 20 years indicates 51 yd ave; longest shot of 187 yds, shortest of 4 feet.

[Chili]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you guys saying gas guns arn't as accurate as bolt guns. Have you guys shot the new SR25s or equiv. i.e. DPMS Panther. We easily shot 100 and 200 yd. hydraulic shots (T-zone), and we shot out to 1100yds with both and they both did about the same. Don't confuse the cababilities of the guns/barrels with your own capabilities either. I'm carrying a bolt gun (M24) now, but wish I had an SR25/DPMS Panther. I believe that the gas guns in todays operations Iraq/Afghanistan are much more PRACTICAL. Just my opinion, with experience over here, and with both systems. I'm not going to get into the 5.56, I have no experience with any 5.56 sniper systems.

$$$:
As far as you're budget though, I don't think you could get a gas gun AS accurate as your bolt for less than $2500. I DO think it takes a lot more cash to get the gas gun as accurate as any ordinary bolt, but it IS possible.

[Robb Jensen]

gotM4,

Did you READ my post on page 1 of this thread discussing LE sniper statistics, including averge shot distance?

Yes. But to not only use YOUR source as the only for info, I had heard 90yds somewhere else as the longest LE 'sniper' shot. (from other is LE).

For LE work inside up to 300yds I don't that there is a reasonable difference (other than OPINION) between .223 in 75-77gr and .308 in 168-175gr to justify one over the other.

[Steve_Morrison]

With the wide variety of JHP and bonded bullets available to the civilian sector the 223 is serving well in various law enforcement roles.

However when bullets of similar construction are compared, the 308 (with 2X or more bullet weight) offers greatly improved terminal ballistics and vastly superior penetration through intermediate barriers, such as glass, wood, masonry, steel, body armor and various types of clothing.

[K.L. Davis]

For LE work inside up to 300yds I don't that there is a reasonable difference (other than OPINION) between .223 in 75-77gr and .308 in 168-175gr to justify one over the other.

The good thing is that this discussion has been around long enough, and there has been a great deal of discussion and testing of these very subjects, that there is no need for professionals to have to rely on opinion or specualtion.

But first a few things to keep in mind.

So far there as been no real discussion about the role or complexities of a "sniper" per se... that being that the role involves skill sets far beyond a good shot group.

There is also more than just a casual list of differences between a military and LE sniper.

Furthermore, in talking with the original poster offline, what he is looking for is not within the definiton of the role of a sniper, more so a perimiter rifle -- and for that, an AR should fill the need quite well.

There are many considerations involved in the employment of a constabulary sniper, not the least of which is departmental policy and the ever present threat of turning from shooter to litigant, or even defendant in the blink of an eye.

The data collected by ASA is considered by most, to be the most comprehensive compilation of its type... for the most part, it seems to have substantiated what many suspected prior, but now with some hard material to reference.

While the world of the LE sniper generally does not extend that far... there are unique requirements and considerations within that world -- one such troublesome critter is intermediate barriers.

It is difficult to hang things on a place in time... but a lot of people look at the Sacramento (SED) Good Guys incident as a good place to focus -- many test sprang from this, from all sorts of TLAs, ammo manufacturers and the such. As well as closer looks at indidents and the performance of ammo in real gun fights.

These tests resulted in ammo manufacturers offering some very good choices across the board -- and in the case of the OPs question, TAP or T3 in a good upper with some 4X glass will bring all the smoke needed.

However... the results of testing precision delivery through barriors has shown time and again, that the lesser caliber cartridge gives up too much of itself and its performance to its bigger brother...

I know, we can all offer stories of exceptional or supernatural perfomance of a cartridge in one incident of a checkpoint shootout at band camp last summer... and from the 187 rounds fired there is the one that deflects from a roadside marker, ricochet off of a water buffalo, enters the rear passanger window of the vehicle and strikes a blue plastic comb setting on the dashboard with enough force to send pieces of the comb about the vehicle as leathal shrapnel... killing all seven occupants.

But, the reluctance by the shooter to rely on that same voodoo happening twice in a lifetime, is certainly understandable.