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Thread: Faced with a dilemma

  1. #21
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    I prefer the flexibility of a mid-length gas system and HG over a carbine length gas system/HG if the standard front sight base is being used. In my experience the barrel lengths I prefer with their associated duties are as follows-
    10.0 to 12.5 for ease of transportation and concealability and isn't stupid long with a suppressor. In my opinon, the best if you have a high probability of having to fight from a civilian type vehicle.
    14.5 carbine - only to replicate a work gun or dedicated training gun (5.45 for ex).
    16 middie- for GP use. Properly set up it will do everything a longer or shorter barrel will do, just not quite as well as far as handiness (compared to 10.5 guns) or long distance terminal performance (compared to dedicated 20+" barrels).
    18 intermediate for semi-precision/run and gun competitions. The heavier front-end helps reduce bounce and longer HG gives more flexibility in positioning as well as encouraging an extended grip. I can't say for sure if the intermediate gas makes much difference compared to a middie or rifle gas system on this barrel length, but it certainly doesn't seem to hurt me in any way.

    If I could have only one, and I was not needing it to be readily deployed while driving, I would go with a 16" middie. I have a BCM middie and I like it quite a lot more than I did any 16" carbine, including Colts, thus the reason I own only one 16" carbine- a 5.45 S&W that I am seriously considering cutting down to 14.7 and pin/welding.

    Then again, I also believe that optic choice will drive appreciable performance more than gas system alone.

    I do not believe my opinon the be the final answer, just throwing my opinon out there with the rest.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    it is time invested in developing and refining the product, and experience in manufacturing it over the course of nearly a half-century. they have the most time with the platform, and they have established the benchmark for this particular weapon system.
    You are right they established it but it is a defined standard, MPI testing and the such, certain grade steels etc. These standards are being met by Daniel Defense, BCM, and exceeded by Noveske, and others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    The M-16/A1/A2 and M4 as produced by Colt (and others) are built to a defined set of standards, and it makes little difference whose name is rolled onto the receiver, so long as they are producing to that standard. The overwhelming majority of producers in the current AR market don't even know for certain what that standard is, much less attempt to match it point-for-point.
    You made the same point I stated above that there are set standards which if met will produce a weapon of equal quality regardless of manufacturer, I agree that with the majority of companies (Bushmaster) not adhereing to these standards makes the Colt stand out but it is not 5-10 years ago when Colt was the only company producing rifles to the standard. The number of companies producing weapons to the same standard is growing seemingly daily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    the LE6920 remains the measuring stick by which all of the others are judged.
    Agreed but if others meet or at times exceed the standard why should colt remain so coveted, it is an eletist take on a subject to say because you established a standard that you are the best if others meet or exceed that standard. Heck Noveske makes weapons that exceed the Colt standard which should arguably make them the standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    All I've said here is that it makes a great deal of sense to invest in at least one Colt somewhere along the line
    Again you say invest, if that wre a goal of the purchaser then I would agree with you BUT if having a weapon to shoot, take to classes, and use as intended is the goal then I think there are weapons that are better than the Colt. The Colt is a basic box stock weapon, most of us would spend hundreds of dollars on accessories Grips, stocks, BUIS, rails, etc. I 'll use the DDM4 as an example here comes with a good Magpul stock, pmags, enhanced triggerguard, great BUIS, excellent rail, and a VFG on top of these features it meets the same standards. So if I am not collecting then why would I buy the Colt over the DD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    No offense intended, but these kinds of remarks are inevitably made by those who don't own a Colt, and who want to feel better about buying something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    We can do better.
    This is a STUPID remark which again goes back for me to the Koolaid remark I made in my last post, so yes "we" can do better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    Life Member,
    82d Airborne Division Association
    For what it's worth I am also a Lifetime member of the 82nd ABN DIV Assn. I have also served in two MOSs in the 82nd ABN DIV with over 11+ years in the DIV as well as 4 in 1st SFG(A), and I'm currently in Afghanistan with the 82nd, as if all of this means anything in this discussion, which it does not but since you felt compelled to bring it up.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    If so, then I'm guessing that it came across in some fashion other than that which was intended. I've no interest in elitist overtones because I might or might not own a Colt; I was simply making the observation that these comments are all-too-often made by people who don't have any first-hand experience from which to denigrate a company like Colt. I've no emotional investment either way, though I can see where this might not have been entirely clear. I'll take the hit on that.
    AC
    No one was denigrating Colt, unless you consider my challanging their seprimacy was a denigration, They have set a standard but others have met and or exceeded that which goes back to answering the OPs post, it should have more to do with how he plans to use said weapon than our "feelings" about Colt. If he is collecting get the Colt, if he plans to shoot it a lot get the BCM the Middy aspect is more appealing to me than the Colt name especially when quality of both is virtually identical.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp0319 View Post
    ... the Middy aspect is more appealing to me than the Colt name especially when quality of both is virtually identical.
    This is, to my mind, the core argument -- and it is certainly not a bad one. There are so many configuration possibilities these days from reputable vendors that it is easy to get overwhelmed. If a shooter knows for a fact that he is ready to invest in a mid-gas carbine, then there are several stellar vendors from which to choose, and BCM would certainly be at the top of my list. We're in agreement there, and I suspect, in most other aspects as well.

    Now, if that same shooter is not quite sure what he's looking for, then I think the 6920 provides about as competent a starting point as one is likely to find. I'm not suggesting they are the end-all, be-all of carbines right now, but owning a Colt is desirable for any number of reasons, and they are readily available at the moment, which isn't always the case.

    It is all-too-easy for shades of agreement to come across as discord, when in fact, that isn't the case at all. I was probably in error to carry a TOS-like inference from the Kool-Aid remark, and I'm fairly certain that you carried something out of my reply that wasn't intended. The fact is that we are actually of very much the same mindset (which is also the only reason I mentioned my All American background, since you feel enough of a connection to the Division to use it for an avatar). In a face-to-face, we would surely have both been nodding north-south; on the internet, it feels like a contentious debate. It isn't -- not at all.

    AC
    Stand your ground; don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here. -- Captain John Parker, Lexington, 1775.

  5. #25
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    AC, agreed I know some things get out of hand on here I get my feathers ruffled especially when it seems that people reccomend Colt without a nod to what the user needs or their plans are. So I digress I probibly got to defensive, Colt makes a good Carbine no doubt I just wanted to make the point that they are not alone anymore as a top tier AR maker and there are may options available.

    ATW
    JP

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridewaves View Post
    I'd say the only thing the 6920 has the edge on is brand recognition... and that's debatable.
    Most of those outside of the internet gun community haven't even heard of BCM, Noveske, Larue etc. But everyone knows Colt.

  7. #27
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    I own both a Colt 6920 and a BCM middy upper (with F/A BCM BCG) on a Sun Devil lower. Besides the very tight mag well on the Sun Devil, I'll take the BCM over the Colt any day. The middy is much more pleasurable to shoot, has a longer sight radius, and it should be more durable.

  8. #28
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    I think that the Chart does some disservice in this regard.

    There are things that Colt does, materials they use, manufacturing processes employed, that to my knowledge none of the other manufacturers are doing (yet?) and most have no plans to. These things to not appear on the Chart, probably wouldn't matter to most people, and consequently don't ever get brought up. Some people may find Daniel Defense's use of cold hammer forged barrels, or BCM's midlength gas system to be of more value than these other Colt-only features, but that's a personal choice.

    If you think that any other manufacturer is doing EVERYTHING Colt does and the only differences are to improve on the Colt, you are wrong.

    Personally, if I was going to buy just one carbine right now, I'd still buy the BCM. But don't get confused with a little bit of knowledge and think that the BCM is everything the Colt is but better. Better in some areas? Perhaps. Not as good in some areas? Yes. As-good-as in all areas and better in some? No.

    What I'd really do if I was starting from scratch is buy a 6920, keep the complete lower and BCG, and install a BCM midlength upper receiver on it. I suspect I could get more for the unfired 6920 upper than the $475 BCM charges for their complete uppers.
    Last edited by rob_s; 09-14-09 at 12:24.

  9. #29
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    Rob, please explain what Colt does that isn't listed on the chart that BCM doesn't do. I'd like some insight. Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by tylerw02; 09-14-09 at 12:54.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylerw02 View Post
    Rob, please explain what Colt does that isn't listed on the chart that BCM doesn't do. I'd like some insight. Thanks in advance.
    Im curious to know as well. I was under the impression there were companies who did everything at least as well or better than colt does.

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