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Thread: Rob Haught Shotgun AAR

  1. #31
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    Excellent write up Grant, and thanks for organizing this class. I've always had a "social" shotgun in my armory but never had any formal training with one, and I definitely took away a lot from this class, and any chance to shoot with Ken Hackathorn should not be passed up.

    Overall I'm happy with my set up with a couple exceptions....

    1) I definitely need to move the rear sling attachment point to the rear of the stock. Currently I'm running a BFG VCAS with a GGG rear sling plate between the receiver and the stock. What I don't like with this arrangement is that it allows the shotgun to swing more than it should when not under manual control, and when transitioning to the left shoulder, it's very possible that the sling will cover the ejection port, inducing a malfunction. This happened to me in the shoot house and I immediately went to my G19, took care of the threat, then ducked back behind cover to clear the malf. Shouldn't have happened in the first place.

    2) I am running a 20" Remington IC rifle sighted barrel...which felt like a musket compared to the 14" guns being run. I'm thinking about picking up a 14" factory SBS to keep it's big brother company.

    I went into this class with a very open mind, I have always respected the power of the shotgun, to quote Rob, it's "the hammer of God", ammo management has always seemed like an issue for me.

    But, to put it in context......the chances of needing more than a magazine of shotgun shells in the civillian world are exceedingly slim, and you should have a way to carry extra ammo on the gun anyway. The same goes for most police applications. With proper training, the shotgun can be an extremely effective tool to have in your arsenal.

    I will say that if I do need to clear my house, I'd prefer my 6920 or an AK, but the shotgun offers a lot of advantages, mainly in the reduction of drywall penetration and the sheer capacity to deliver fight stopping wounds.

    Thanks again to Rob Haught. Absolutely a top notch instuctor. If you have an opportunity to train with Rob, take it.


    I'm still working on uploading pics, and I haven't started with video yet.

    Here are some from TD1.




    The amount of energy required in the push-pull technique is basically equivalent to holding the shotgun up with one arm.






    CQB



























    Employee of colonialshooting.com

  2. #32
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    This is what happens when you put a M4 style stock on your Mossberg and don't quite have the shotgun positioned correctly when you drop the hammer.........











    Downtime....

    Employee of colonialshooting.com

  3. #33
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    Last edited by TOrrock; 09-14-09 at 23:44.
    Employee of colonialshooting.com

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post

    David and Goliath



    C4


    Damn.


    Oh, and my apologies again to Katar for blindly following my Garmin as it attempted to drive us off a cliff and onto an off road course.

    The Dodge Dakota handled it fine though.
    Last edited by TOrrock; 09-16-09 at 14:18.
    Employee of colonialshooting.com

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraq Ninja View Post
    Grant,

    What about when you shoot it left handed?

    Was there any discussion of the Saiga style of shotguns? I know they are becoming popular in three gun matches. I own one and am very pleased with its performance and reliability.


    I had a SAIGA 12 that had been converted to a standard AK stock and pistol grip, with the barrel cut to 18.5", and got rid of it a couple years ago.

    I didn't like the inability to top off rounds in the magazine, I didn't like having to carry all those 5 and 8 round Russian mags around, and at the time, there weren't any US made magazines available. I still honestly don't trust the US made mags to hold up over the long haul.

    I think they're fun guns, and probably very well suited to 3 gun matches, but for a social gun, I'll stick with a quality pump or more traditional semi auto.

    I'm saying this as an "AK Guy" too.....
    Employee of colonialshooting.com

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Downtime....


    For whatever reason, I think that has to be the coolest pic of the bunch. Nice shot Templar.

    So, I've been shown a push/pull technique from a police officer friend of mine. It's made shooting the shotgun much more enjoyable since I learned it. Am I to assume this is something that's been around a while? I was shown, (not fully learned) this technique about 2 years ago. I've had a stock Win 1300 Defender for about 4 years and really didn't shoot it until I learned this technique. I've been using Federal 4buck since. Man, I envy you that are close enough to attend these classes. Please understand that if I ask questions about what is going on in these classes, it isn't just because I don't want to go pay for the classes, it's because I live about a bazzilion miles from them. My hope is that they get enough interest to have some out west.

    The CQB firing position looks very interesting, but there's a couple of pics earlier that show it that seem to make me believe that there's only a gain of about 2-3" when employed. Is this a camera phenomenon? See below...



    vs.



    reference the cone in front of the muzzle. Is this because of when the photo was taken or can the CQB grip shorten up the profile more than what is depicted? I realize it may be a timing of the photo issue so don't think I'm criticizing, I'm not. Just trying to learn. Also, in the CQB mode, is there a necessity to put more forward force on the off hand to counteract the lack of shoulder support? It'd seem logical to assume so.

    I also saw a few different pictures of people upending the shotgun to load it. Is that a personal preference or something that makes more sense being you can see the loading port? Personally, I've always loaded from the bottom with my index and thumb. If there's a reason for it, I'd like to know so I can start training it.

    Thank you all for the pictures and the write ups. Being out here in the middle of nowhere has it's advantages I guess, but being close to such good training facilities isn't one of them.

    Shoot safe!
    Time flies when you throw your watch.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhurdan View Post
    Man, I envy you that are close enough to attend these classes. Please understand that if I ask questions about what is going on in these classes, it isn't just because I don't want to go pay for the classes, it's because I live about a bazzilion miles from them.
    Just FYI, Templar drove about nine hours to make this class.

  8. #38
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    9 vs. 28 hours... I may have to wait for a closer venue.

    Either way, any information is greatly appreciated.



    As an aside....

    I've looked into flying to a training event, but many things get in the way. The most prevalent is ammo transportation. The second of which, for me at least, is time. Vacation is becoming more and more in short supply as companies cut back on their "benefits". A Nevada venue would be perfect, but alas, I am but one person. (hint: if you're in the area, joint the training forum for the SW to garner interest out here) Like I said, I envy you all that are close.
    Last edited by Zhurdan; 09-15-09 at 00:20. Reason: ramblings
    Time flies when you throw your watch.

  9. #39
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    Look's like a good class with the best shotgun trainer in the world.. but man some of you guys need to take some mma classes.As a fat body.. like myself( no pics) who got in shape i'm sure it would make a HUGE impact on your firearm training.I know there is only so much time in a day,but man.Also a little blood like that is no biggie( i know i'm doing the my co$k is bigger then your co#c thing) but take some mma classes and try getting hit and get the sh^t knocked out of your nose and getting slammed on the mat... then we will talk.
    Last edited by MR.J; 09-15-09 at 01:07.

  10. #40
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    MR.J

    While I am sure your one bad dude, and yes I sport my own share of extra pounds, I assure you that 1 1/4oz of lead will take you right out of the fight no matter how hard and how often you train. I will even let you pick, birdshot, # 4s, Buck or a slug.


    As for the school all I can say is great class and awesome instructor. Having been a very accomplished shotgun shooter both on clays, waterfowl, 3-Gun and upland game I definitely was educated on use of the tactical shotgun and its value as a CQB weapon. Rob's class was somewhat more geared to the use of the pump gun which I ran being more of a semi-auto guy. The push/pull method really helps with recoil management. One of the best pieces of info I got out of the class was that in most all cases a shotgun that is 5 plus one and a four round side saddle will handle most all situations and there have really been no known situations where a shotgun deployed in such a manner required additional ammo to solve the intended threat or problem. I have always had concerns on how to manage the shotgun kit and extra ammo. A false concern that I am sure has come from the 3-Gun world where in that "Game" you have to carry in some cases 20 plus rounds. Rob somewhat believes that if it can’t be solved with 10 rounds from your scatter gun then you need a new plan and were way in over your head to begin with.

    For me there will be some equipment changes forth coming. A shorter barrel is a must have as well as a reduced length of pull stock. I also will look into the Surefire weapon mounted forend light. Not only for the desire to have white light on my shotgun but to aid in the push/pull. With big hands that large forend is not only comfortable it allows me to get a much better grip to manage the recoil especially in the CQB position. I need to work out the sling thing as well especially so I can shoot more easily on the weak side which is another must as again the shot house has proven. I do believe that your home defense gun is better left without a sling which was confirmed by Ken.

    While many here feel that the shotgun may not be there first choice for home defense I do feel it has merit. With pistols and an AR all in reach of the bed what I do like about the shotgun is it is the easiest to learn to shoot and operate. That’s a plus for me with teenagers and the lady of the house just in case I’m not there or sleep through any incident. I am more than confident they can deploy the shotgun and have a better chance of solving the problem with it over the other choices.

    For those of you that may just be in the market for a new shotgun don’t hesitate to look at the Mossberg 930 SPX gas gun. Can’t believe I said that after my thoughts on cheap guns but this is a really nice ride. Comes with a few bells and whistles out of the box and it is FAST! I mean FAST! One was run in the class without issue.

    It’s always great to meet and shoot with the M4 members and I look forward to the next time we can get trigger time no matter what the platform.

    Grant thanks for hosting. Rob, thanks for the training.

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