Cutting vs Stabbing and Gun Show Wisdom

[mercop]

For those who continue with the gun show slogan comments like "Just shoot them" and "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"- have you done any force on force against edged weapons?

We have narrowed it down to the two most likely angles you will be attacked at, Angle 1 traveling high right to low left from a right handed attacker, and Angle 7 which is a stab. Angle 1 looks remarkably like a roundhouse punch, and Angle 7 a jab or rabbit punch. Research shows that most victims of edged weapon attacks did not see the weapon. In addition it takes on average 3/4 of a second to respond to a visual stimuli. That said I think we can all agree that responding to a roundhouse punch with a firearm in most circumstances is going to be unjustified. So someone is swinging at you and you are able to see a weapon, what are the chances of you being able to deploy your pistol, get the muzzle between you and the attacker and pull the trigger before they #1, slash your face/neck with a box cutter, or #2, plunge a screwdriver between your ribs?

This past weekend we did an Edged Weapon Survival / Combative Pistol Course in Pittsburgh. Students found out fast that going to the traditional two handed shooting stance resulted in them taking at least one cut/stab to a vital area. They were also attacked with impact weapons representing tire irons while they were wearing headgear. This resulted in them taking what would be a crippling blow to the side or top of the head.

Once students realized they needed to deal with the assault first, and needed to move. They began using their reaction side hand to block/wrap/deflect their attacker. This coupled with moving at a hard 45 degree angle to the right of their attacker usually resulted in them landing rounds without being touched by the weapon.

Back to cuts. vs slashes. We are discussing the defensive use of edged weapons, when you are backed into a corner. View yourself as a cat in that situation. Your knife should be used as a claw in a frenzy to make the predator realize you are not worth his life. You fight to stop the attacker, not to win or kill him. If he dies in the fight, that is the breaks. I view cut/rips/slashes as the claws. Stabs are your teeth. Teeth are used defensively, but usually only after the claws open up the attackers body to expose vital areas.

At the beginning of an attack, where you are defending with an edged weapon, you are most likely to be moving backward. When humans are forced backwards, their arms go out to the side trying to keep their balance. If you have a knife in your hand and are defending at this point, you will be slashing. What we have evidenced during force on force is that the slashes usually cut the outside of the shoulder and across the torso. This does little to any of the body systems.

The human arm is only capable of three things: pushing, pulling, and swinging. We are hardwired to use swinging to defend ourselves since it covers the most area in front of us to block/wrap/evade. With a knife, it also allows us to cover more area on our attacker increasing the chances of a cut. Long before we had edged weapons, we were stuck with our natural impact weapons at the end of our arms...our fists. We learned early on that the centrifugal force generated by swinging worked well for beating people off of us or at least changing their mind about the attack. Before the invention of purpose driven weapons, pushing someone (stabbing) off of us had little benefit, especially when there was a disparity in size. In life and death situations at contact distance when being driven back, our primitive mind had a tendency to win out over our trained mind. We can't change it so we train into it.

The way we do this at MCS is with Inverted Edge Tactics. By using the inverted grip, we placed the blade in a position to take natural advantage of the natural path of our hands (from the waist line up to our chest). On its way up, you feel the knife "catch" in vital areas and pull as your attacker responds to the pain. This causes a devastating scissor effect.

Focusing on the tool instead of the fight is a deadly error. - George

[GreyOps]

Once students realized they needed to deal with the assault first, and needed to move. They began using their reaction side hand to block/wrap/deflect their attacker. This coupled with moving at a hard 45 degree angle to the right of their attacker usually resulted in them landing rounds without being touched by the weapon.

Very similar to what I was taught at the SigArms Academy's Weapon Retention Instructor Course. I also like the "teeth and claws" analogy.

[BLACK LION]

For those who continue with the gun show slogan comments like "Just shoot them" and "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"- have you done any force on force against edged weapons? This has always been a dangerous mindset IMO...some just dont realize how quickly a skilled "predatory knifer" can close distance and inflict mortal trauma... At bad breath distance an efficient knife user is far more deadly for a few reasons

We have narrowed it down to the two most likely angles you will be attacked at, Angle 1 traveling high right to low left from a right handed attacker, and Angle 7 which is a stab. Angle 1 looks remarkably like a roundhouse punch, and Angle 7 a jab or rabbit punch. Research shows that most victims of edged weapon attacks did not see the weapon.Which brings forth the saying "a knife is felt not seen" In addition it takes on average 3/4 of a second to respond to a visual stimuli. That said I think we can all agree that responding to a roundhouse punch with a firearm in most circumstances is going to be unjustified. So someone is swinging at you and you are able to see a weapon, what are the chances of you being able to deploy your pistol, get the muzzle between you and the attacker and pull the trigger before they #1, slash your face/neck with a box cutter, or #2, plunge a screwdriver between your ribs?Gonna get cut and thats the reason why utilization of body weapons even when armed is essential

This past weekend we did an Edged Weapon Survival / Combative Pistol Course in Pittsburgh. Students found out fast that going to the traditional two handed shooting stance resulted in them taking at least one cut/stab to a vital area. They were also attacked with impact weapons representing tire irons while they were wearing headgear. This resulted in them taking what would be a crippling blow to the side or top of the head. Sounds like great training under duress

Once students realized they needed to deal with the assault first, and needed to move. They began using their reaction side hand to block/wrap/deflect their attacker. This coupled with moving at a hard 45 degree angle to the right of their attacker usually resulted in them landing rounds without being touched by the weapon. Outstanding

Back to cuts. vs slashes. We are discussing the defensive use of edged weapons, when you are backed into a corner. View yourself as a cat in that situation. Your knife should be used as a claw in a frenzy to make the predator realize you are not worth his life. You fight to stop the attacker, not to win or kill him. If he dies in the fight, that is the breaks. I view cut/rips/slashes as the claws. Stabs are your teeth. Teeth are used defensively, but usually only after the claws open up the attackers body to expose vital areas. The "claws and teeth" are a good analogy... The reverse grip or ice pick grip is king here especially in tight spots... it offers the ease of use because it bonds with the natural gross movements of the arm.... We tend to do a combination kinda like opnening a letter...perforate and pull, perforate and push, perforate and swing/twist... We definately utilize targeting in the process...getting to something vital is the ultimate goal...

At the beginning of an attack, where you are defending with an edged weapon, you are most likely to be moving backward. When humans are forced backwards, their arms go out to the side trying to keep their balance. If you have a knife in your hand and are defending at this point, you will be slashing. What we have evidenced during force on force is that the slashes usually cut the outside of the shoulder and across the torso. This does little to any of the body systems. Do you incorporate striking with body weapons in conjunctionwith the use of the knife here???I can see the advantages or striking with the body while deploying the knife. I guess If I can get an eye or a knee or the neck while moving back then I can regain my base and change the momentum once the blade touches them.... I dont know if this makes any sense???

The human arm is only capable of three things: pushing, pulling, and swinging. We are hardwired to use swinging to defend ourselves since it covers the most area in front of us to block/wrap/evade. With a knife, it also allows us to cover more area on our attacker increasing the chances of a cut. Long before we had edged weapons, we were stuck with our natural impact weapons at the end of our arms...our fists. We learned early on that the centrifugal force generated by swinging worked well for beating people off of us or at least changing their mind about the attack. Before the invention of purpose driven weapons, pushing someone (stabbing) off of us had little benefit, especially when there was a disparity in size. In life and death situations at contact distance when being driven back, our primitive mind had a tendency to win out over our trained mind. We can't change it so we train into it. So... I assume the knife hand is cradled close to the vital areas of the torso and the "reaction hand" is used as a body weapon or striking medium like what I mentioned above???.... Some very good point on a physological level here btw

The way we do this at MCS is with Inverted Edge Tactics. By using the inverted grip, we placed the blade in a position to take natural advantage of the natural path of our hands (from the waist line up to our chest). On its way up, you feel the knife "catch" in vital areas and pull as your attacker responds to the pain. This causes a devastating scissor effect. [B]I am partial to this grip for several reasons including the ones you pointed out... It isnt the only grip I train but IMO there are only two ways to grip it if you want to "rip it" ...

Focusing on the tool instead of the fight is a deadly error. Outstanding point... thier brain and thier functioning body should always be the focus... thier ability to think and move is far more deadly than any tool- George

Great post... I enjoy reading and corresponding with your material....

Regarding Cutting vs stabbing... IMO they go hand and hand... you may use one to get to the other and of course the situation at hand will be the only true way of dictating what that rythm will be...

[JohnN]

Great points George, it's easy to become focused on the tool and forget how important integration of H2H skills are in the majority of self defense situations.

[NCPatrolAR]

WHich system are these angles pulled from? I've been taught that angles 5-7 were all stabs to the torso

[andy t]

Great points. I would also highly recommend checking out Southnarc's classes. You will gain appreciation through drills for what mercop is talking about.
You have to survive the initial attack and then gain control before being able to do anything else.

[mercop]

Ours stab is an angle #7 at any level. IET goals go like this-
Cut
Move to outside
Drop attacker in place using the knife, open hand skills, and balance disruption.
Transition to pistol if available/needed and move on to subsequent threats

[Gomez]

Very similar to what I was taught at the SigArms Academy's Weapon Retention Instructor Course. I also like the "teeth and claws" analogy.

No surprise there, as Michael de Bethencourt was the mad genius behind that particular Sig program. Michael has been a proponent of edge-in knife work for a long time but has remained relatively obscure.

SouthNarc has been popularizing his take on edge-in knife work, using the terminology Reverse Edge Methods, for at least six or seven years.

I would suggest that if you are presented with an edged weapons attack at contact distance, you are better served by fighting that fight rather than attempting to immediately draw a weapon [any weapon]. Once you have survived the ambush, mitigated the attacker in some way, established a dominate position, then you can look at getting a tool into play. Any attempt to shortcut that progression does not tend to bode well for the good guy.

[mercop]

No surprise there, as Michael de Bethencourt was the mad genius behind that particular Sig program. Michael has been a proponent of edge-in knife work for a long time but has remained relatively obscure.

SouthNarc has been popularizing his take on edge-in knife work, using the terminology Reverse Edge Methods, for at least six or seven years.

I would suggest that if you are presented with an edged weapons attack at contact distance, you are better served by fighting that fight rather than attempting to immediately draw a weapon [any weapon]. Once you have survived the ambush, mitigated the attacker in some way, established a dominate position, then you can look at getting a tool into play. Any attempt to shortcut that progression does not tend to bode well for the good guy.

Paul, that last paragraph is sage wisdom this is too often discounted by armed citizens and police alike.- George