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Thread: Strong opposite opinions

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaglocker View Post
    What is your formula Grant?
    Religious cleaning + Lots of lube?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaglocker View Post
    What is your formula Grant?

    Using a quality barrel, with M4 feedramps, small gas port, LMT enhanced carrier with a quality bolt, and a buffer and spring to match the GP size. Last but not, least, quality magazines.

    Not only does my gun run cleaner than a suppressed piston AR, but it also has almost ZERO felt recoil. This makes it one of the fastest (on target) AR's out there.

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33743


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 09-25-09 at 12:59.

  3. #23
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    Herd mentality. I don't know how many times I've come up to a stoplight with 2 right hand lanes(4 lane road) and seen 4 or 5 cars in one lane. Every one else is in this lane so the sheeple follow right along, never thinking to get into the lane witout anyone in it. Same principle: go to Wally World, go to check out, and there are multiple people in several lines with several lines with no one in them.

    Like bkb and rob touched on, most people do not think for themselves. Can you say government schools? Thank goodness some of us managed to not get brainwashed. But then again, I wasn't singing songs to the president.

  4. #24
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    Reason there is no piston AR in my immediate future:

    1. Cost -a lot of extra cash going to waist.

    2. Weight - It adds up, especially after adding accessories. I'll take a little extra
    cleaning for the weight reduction.

    3. DI AR works for me -For my needs and Di is more than adequate with less cost
    and weight.

    Do I hate piston AR's?... No. I just don't have a need for one.
    Will I have on one day?... maybe.
    Last edited by RojasTKD; 09-25-09 at 13:24.

  5. #25
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    i don't have a strong opinion on either DI or piston ARs except that i like to try out different things to see how well they work.
    i like the piston uppers i have, and shoot them more often than the DI uppers, mostly as curiosity to put more rounds through them and see what problems crop up. the DI uppers are 'known' variables (i've been shooting DI uppers since '84) - i'm always interested in the 'unknown'.
    Last edited by militarymoron; 09-25-09 at 13:50.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    I think "hate" is a pretty strong word. I think that piston driven AR types are useful in very limited applications.

    As passed on by Larry Vickers, who consulted with HK to bring out the 416....

    1) Heavy full auto fire

    2) Barrel length less than 14.5"

    3) Heavy use of a suppressor.

    If you can answer yes to any of the above then a piston driven system like the HK 416 might be very useful.

    I think that the general consensus here among most of the very knowledgeable is that a piston type is a waste on a 16" carbine, and may very well introduce more issues than they solve.
    Indeed. Some treat a piston gun as if it is a solution to all problems in and of itself...pistons are not magic, and as such don't magically solve problems with the platform. Just like DI AR's, all piston guns are not created equal. Further, many of the DI AR carbines far exceed the service needs of most users. The average Colt 6920 will last for a very long time even with a user that fires thousands of rounds per year in training.

    Knowing this, it makes more sense for most users to put the money intended for a piston AR into a good DI gun with a good light, optic, and sling, and then to seek out training.
    Last edited by John_Wayne777; 09-25-09 at 14:00.

  7. #27
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    wow, a discussion of piston and direct impingement systems that hasn't decayed into name calling and trolling!

    i have both types, and the main reason for getting a piston set up was that i hate the gas from the impingement system blowing back into my face. i brought an m6a2 and while it is a good weapon, the balance feels off, the rail system is too wide, it's heavy and it recoils more than my di rifles.

    i keep going back to my 6920 and increasingly my e3. both deliver better accuracy, both are lighter and to be honest, by the time you get the rail covers off the m6a2, they all take about the same amount of time to clean.

    i do take on board the substantial price penalty you are expected to pay to join the piston club.

    i don't however subscribe to the argument leveled at piston guns that there is no common operating system, rather i regard them as different weapons combining the excellent ergonomics of the ar platform, much like you would compare a sig 556 to an ar for example. i've seen no evidence of carrier tilt on the m6a2 and certainly no bolt wear. in point of fact, as the bolt is stabilized in the barrel extension by chamber pressure and as the fit between the bolt and carrier is sloppy, i find no evidence of bolt tilt. if hk416 bolts are getting to 12k in heavy use, that's at least double what you would expect from an impingement m4 in the same situation.

    for me it's like a gas or diesel truck, both get you where you need to go, they just go about it in a different way.

    now what would be really cool would be a light-weight, well balanced, piston driven rifle with no cost penalty, less recoil and narrower rail system. could that be the mrp - almost.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonrider657 View Post
    On "that other forum" everyone seems to love the new Piston Guns. Here on M4Carbine.net everyone seems to hate them.

    The folks on each respective forum seem to be in agreement with one another but diametrically opposed to the consensus on the other forum.

    What's up with the very strong and opposing opinions on Gas Piston Systems for AR's?
    Like many others have said, "hate" is a strong word. I would lovingly own an HK416 or one of the Colt or LMT piston guns. I just don't need one right now.

    As for the differences of opinions between the two sites take a look at who's pushing the piston guns and what their credentials are. Here you know who the Industry Professionals and Subject Matter Experts are and over there you have no idea who they are.

    IIRC before I had enough of that place the biggest and most vocal proponent of a certain piston gun was a college kid that openly admitted that he rarely shot ARs and had little experience and NO training. That's not a knock against piston guns but a warning about being careful who you get advice from.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miale View Post
    wow, a discussion of piston and direct impingement systems that hasn't decayed into name calling and trolling!

    i have both types, and the main reason for getting a piston set up was that i hate the gas from the impingement system blowing back into my face. i brought an m6a2 and while it is a good weapon, the balance feels off, the rail system is too wide, it's heavy and it recoils more than my di rifles.

    i keep going back to my 6920 and increasingly my e3. both deliver better accuracy, both are lighter and to be honest, by the time you get the rail covers off the m6a2, they all take about the same amount of time to clean.

    i do take on board the substantial price penalty you are expected to pay to join the piston club.

    i don't however subscribe to the argument leveled at piston guns that there is no common operating system, rather i regard them as different weapons combining the excellent ergonomics of the ar platform, much like you would compare a sig 556 to an ar for example. i've seen no evidence of carrier tilt on the m6a2 and certainly no bolt wear. in point of fact, as the bolt is stabilized in the barrel extension by chamber pressure and as the fit between the bolt and carrier is sloppy, i find no evidence of bolt tilt. if hk416 bolts are getting to 12k in heavy use, that's at least double what you would expect from an impingement m4 in the same situation.

    for me it's like a gas or diesel truck, both get you where you need to go, they just go about it in a different way.

    now what would be really cool would be a light-weight, well balanced, piston driven rifle with no cost penalty, less recoil and narrower rail system. could that be the mrp - almost.
    Negative on the 416 breaking bolts with hard use. 9-12k un-suppressed and no FA use. They were supposed to last for 20k (per HK). I can get 8-10k out of a DI bolt with 90% fired suppressed (in my SBR's).

    C4

  10. #30
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    so what specifically is causing the bolt failures? material choice, timing, etc. while i don't doubt what you are saying, it's a little general and non-specific, do you have any data or sources?

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