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Thread: Strong opposite opinions

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miale View Post
    so what specifically is causing the bolt failures? material choice, timing, etc. while i don't doubt what you are saying, it's a little general and non-specific, do you have any data or sources?
    My info comes from the tier 1 trigger pullers and .Gov employees. I am being not exact for a reason.


    C4

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miale View Post
    so what specifically is causing the bolt failures? material choice, timing, etc. while i don't doubt what you are saying, it's a little general and non-specific, do you have any data or sources?
    speculation is the bolt is pushed back at an angle. other speculation is it getting hit with the op rod pretty hard breaks it.

  3. #33
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    I like both types...but if I had to go into a firefight, I would take a Colt DI over a Piston LWRC (Personal preference, no reason why).
    "There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion." — Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

  4. #34
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    I had an HK 416 upper and sold it after a year. Ran like a champ, but in the end I really didn't see a need for it. Heavy too. BUT, it never through rounds off like other Piston guns do.

    I am impressed by the LMT piston gun. Doesn't seem to have the heavy weight associated with other systems.

    If HK had released their piston upper in the US, I wonder if we would have as many piston brands as we have now? HK was the standard at one time. Are they still?
    ParadigmSRP.com

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraq Ninja View Post
    I had an HK 416 upper and sold it after a year. Ran like a champ, but in the end I really didn't see a need for it. Heavy too. BUT, it never through rounds off like other Piston guns do.

    I am impressed by the LMT piston gun. Doesn't seem to have the heavy weight associated with other systems.

    If HK had released their piston upper in the US, I wonder if we would have as many piston brands as we have now? HK was the standard at one time. Are they still?
    A Civilian 416 and the ACR are what have really motivated me to take seriously piston weapons.

    I ended up getting the SR-556, since I didn't want to wait for either, and had the opportunity to get rid of a Bushmaster to do it.

    My policy for my personal op-rod AR was that it had to be an integrated system, rather than a drop-in.

    I'm curious as to what price the MR556 is going to clock in at. If it's in the SCAR ballpark, I may possibly pass.

    I wholeheartedly agree that if HK hadn't pussyfooted around, this discussion wouldn't be happening, and it would be the precedent for all others, and most likely become *the* piston-driven AR.

  6. #36
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    Grant,

    For perspective because I don't know, what is the typical round count to bolt failure for DI M4s? 9-12K doesn't seem too bad...?

    I'm in the military, currently in Iraq, my personal AR happens to be an LMT MRP piston upper just because that's what was available (for an instant) at normal retail price before I left for this deployment (I wanted a personal AR just in case of a Ban while I was gone). I would have been happy with DI and I can always swap a DI barrel/BCG into the MRP.

  7. #37
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    I like the idea of them, but I have concerns.

    It has been noted a few times in this thread that there are many different types available. Likewise, there is no real "set standard" yet. They just haven't been around long enough for me to build an AR with a piston system.

    I know that the DI system has it's problems. I also know that it will work for many years without a hitch.

    I don't know that about pistons in an AR yet. Some data suggests it here and there, but it's just not enough for me yet.

    I liken it to the automotive industry. In the early days, cars were electric powered, gasoline powered, diesel powered, steam powered, gas powered, gasification powered, heck, spring powered, air powered, some were even wind powered. Some engines were even external combustion. They were all wonderful and new, and all of them looked very good on paper. Time told a different story, however, and some of them turned out to be rubbish. Others were too hard to maintain, and some were too difficult or expensive to manufacture at their price points.

    Eventually, though, everyone settled on the internal combustion piston driven gasoline engine as a rough standard. From there, the industry flourished, and over the years, the issues were worked out of the machine.

    Out of all the various ways to put a piston in the AR platform, one of them will show itself to be better than the others, eventually. That's when I'll put one in an important firearm. They may all seem strikingly similar, but those small differences will add up to large differences in side effects over time.

    It probably doesn't really matter all that much, though, for the average user. When I get around to really thinking about the different systems, I may try one on a budget build to see how it all works out.

    There are a lot of people using them now, though, and over the years to come, more data will be revealed.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by strambo View Post
    Grant,

    For perspective because I don't know, what is the typical round count to bolt failure for DI M4s? 9-12K doesn't seem too bad...?

    I'm in the military, currently in Iraq, my personal AR happens to be an LMT MRP piston upper just because that's what was available (for an instant) at normal retail price before I left for this deployment (I wanted a personal AR just in case of a Ban while I was gone). I would have been happy with DI and I can always swap a DI barrel/BCG into the MRP.

    If we are talking about 10.5's (MK18's), shot mostly on FA, the bolt starts to show cracks in or around 4K. The bolt goes in under 6-8K.

    On SA use, you should be able to get at least 10K out of a bolt.

    C4

  9. #39
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    If we are talking about 10.5's (MK18's), shot mostly on FA, the bolt starts to show cracks in or around 4K. The bolt goes in under 6-8K.

    On SA use, you should be able to get at least 10K out of a bolt.
    Thanks for the reply, I'm trackin' now. At first I thought maybe by reports of 9-12K in the piston bolts, that was worse than expected for DI guns. It's more like there isn't necessarily a benefit (or a large benefit) to the piston system in terms of bolt life due to lower temps etc.

    Roughly the same bolt life or a little better is OK. I'm sure the differences in piston design play a big role (where the lack of standardization comes in). I wouldn't know how the LMT system compares to the HK416 other than cosmetics.

    My next AR will be a more standard M4 type, DI with a carbine or mid length gas by whichever high quality maker suits my fancy when I buy it. I do appreciate the great info on this site...I knew a lot about the M16 series from a user perspective (almost 17 years), but I never knew what made a Colt different from a "fill in the blank" civilian maker until coming here. I would definitely expect my civilian ARs to hold up like my issue M4 (now I know which brands will) or would at least like to know where it is likely to fail ahead of time (and now I do).

    I wish I had the time/ammo to let all of you know when my LMT piston bolt fails...
    Last edited by strambo; 09-26-09 at 10:34.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by strambo View Post
    Thanks for the reply, I'm trackin' now. At first I thought maybe by reports of 9-12K in the piston bolts, that was worse than expected for DI guns. It's more like there isn't necessarily a benefit (or a large benefit) to the piston system in terms of bolt life due to lower temps etc.

    Roughly the same bolt life or a little better is OK. I'm sure the differences in piston design play a big role (where the lack of standardization comes in). I wouldn't know how the LMT system compares to the HK416 other than cosmetics.

    My next AR will be a more standard M4 type, DI with a carbine or mid length gas by whichever high quality maker suits my fancy when I buy it. I do appreciate the great info on this site...I knew a lot about the M16 series from a user perspective (almost 17 years), but I never knew what made a Colt different from a "fill in the blank" civilian maker until coming here. I would definitely expect my civilian ARs to hold up like my issue M4 (now I know which brands will) or would at least like to know where it is likely to fail ahead of time (and now I do).

    I wish I had the time/ammo to let all of you know when my LMT piston bolt fails...

    As far as how the bolt unlocks on a piston driven AR, they are pretty much all the same I think. The HK 416 is really the top of the food chain IMHO.

    The big thing that the Military thought they were getting with a piston gun is much longer life on parts. That does not seem to be a reality.



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 09-26-09 at 10:48.

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