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Thread: Strong opposite opinions

  1. #41
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    From the ads/videos I have seen of piston guns is that they "subject" them to all these bad things, but they dont seem very bad.

    I can bury my dog in mud and/or sand like they did, pull her out and she has no failures either. They all look great in videos and they will sell because of shop marketing, but I dont think the cost makes a better weapon.

  2. #42
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    IMHO on the AR/M16 platform ,I don't believe one system is head and shoulders above the other and they both have plus and minuses . Get a top tier maufacturer of either system and don' worry about it. In new weapons like the SCAR and ACR the piston was designed to be the operating system . IMHO which is better in an AR15/M16 is just about a power struggle for market share and your business ( $$$$ ) because peoples companys and livelihoods are on the line.
    Last edited by Biggy; 09-26-09 at 17:23.

  3. #43
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    I have no strong opinions regarding DI vs. piston AR's. I'm a recreational shooter and use relatively low quantities of ammunition so I'm a very long way from meeting any criteria for which a piston gun might be advantageous. All that said I do have some personal bias for DI AR's simply for parts availability.

  4. #44
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    On technical matters such as the topic of this thread, actually listening to SMEs is nothing like the synchophant behavior that is prevalent on many forums.

    On matters such as this (and a vast number of other topics here) I think it's to a person's credit to study what SMEs have to say and learn from it. That's far cheaper and faster than running tens of thousands of rounds downrange in combat conditions personally.

    A bigger and actually funnier scenario are the non-SMEs who will argue incessantly with SMEs - usually based on their relative sliver of experience. Years of shooting don't count - massive round counts, heavy duty training, and combat deployments do. I've got over 40 years of shooting experience, but its been almost all recreational on my own slim nickel. I've learned a lot on my own but on the subjects that concern this board, I've learned far more from the SMEs, then tried it and found them to be quite correct generally.

    I had interest in going piston when I still believed I had to keep my ARs Q-tip test clean to make them reliable. That "belief" had survived decades. When I learned from SMEs that lube was far more important than spotless and discovered - dang! My guns just shoot and shoot and shoot all I can afford without fanatical cleaning, I lost interest in spending money on piston guns. Then when I noticed the growing pains of the designs . . . I don't have the time or money for that.
    Last edited by JHC; 09-26-09 at 17:50.
    "Whatever it's for; it wasn't possible until now!!!" - KrampusArms

  5. #45
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    I have had the CMMG piston conversion, LWRCi, LMT, and POS and have had no problems with any of them. If I had to choose one, it would probably be LWRCi. However, now I am back to only DI guns instead. The AR-15 was originally designed to be a DI not gas piston. Sure, there were some prototypes and the military even tested them and decided to stick with the basic AR configuration. So long as you keep the AR well maintained it will work well.

    With that though, there is always room for improvement. One thing I would have liked to see was someone to develop a complete intigrated new gas piston upper with the recoil system and all built right in to the upper. That way you could go with a folding stock setup. This seems to be the wave of the future moving forward with the new gas piston guns, i.e. the SCAR, XCR, ACR, etc.

    Last edited by blhar15; 09-27-09 at 09:01.
    When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
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    Glock Certified Armorer, AR-15/M16 Certified Armorer

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    If we are talking about 10.5's (MK18's), shot mostly on FA, the bolt starts to show cracks in or around 4K. The bolt goes in under 6-8K.

    On SA use, you should be able to get at least 10K out of a bolt.

    C4
    Yep, duty cycle plays a huge role.

    As has already been mentioned, unless you are working with the above 3 issues you would be better off with a DI AR.

    Going with the Mk18 over the HK416 was a huge point of contention. But the Mk18 has sustainment and commonality in the current system. SOF would have then been procuring 3 guns - the M4/Mk18, HK416, and the SCAR.

    The DoD and the civilian market have the same problem with piston guns. There is no clear standard/winner in the piston debate. We have over 40 years of development with the DI AR.

    And, it is still not a settled issue! They may be saving the best for last with the ACR/Masada. At the very least the XM8 is dead.

    What will be 'the next big thing'? Who knows? Personally, I am pretty happy with the devil I know. I will save my money for more DI guns and ammo. Let the DoD and the enthusiast community fight out the piston debate. From what I have seen, a quality DI AR with good mags will do everything you need it to do.

    Who knows, maybe 40 years from now we will have a clearly better piston driven gun!?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPLLC View Post
    I think the number one reason to hate piston guns is not having a standardized system.

    Every swinging dick wants a piece of the Pie including ARES, LWRC, Adams Arms, Ruger, Bushmaster, POF, HK, and Colt among others.

    Not standardizing means:
    A lack of a proven track record in a lot of cases
    B no foundation. The product could be gone tomorrow and you might need a spare part. Good luck.

    That's the reason I'm not buying one. We have one standard system and 20 others.
    If your piston gun breaks in twenty years where do you go to buy parts, in many situations only one place, and who is going to fix it? If mine breaks, I will be able to go to hundreds of places and probably find good help to get it fixed. That was my only issue.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armati View Post
    Yep, duty cycle plays a huge role.

    As has already been mentioned, unless you are working with the above 3 issues you would be better off with a DI AR.

    Going with the Mk18 over the HK416 was a huge point of contention. But the Mk18 has sustainment and commonality in the current system. SOF would have then been procuring 3 guns - the M4/Mk18, HK416, and the SCAR.

    The DoD and the civilian market have the same problem with piston guns. There is no clear standard/winner in the piston debate. We have over 40 years of development with the DI AR.

    And, it is still not a settled issue! They may be saving the best for last with the ACR/Masada. At the very least the XM8 is dead.

    What will be 'the next big thing'? Who knows? Personally, I am pretty happy with the devil I know. I will save my money for more DI guns and ammo. Let the DoD and the enthusiast community fight out the piston debate. From what I have seen, a quality DI AR with good mags will do everything you need it to do.

    Who knows, maybe 40 years from now we will have a clearly better piston driven gun!?

    One soldier definitely has no need for 3 guns in 5.56. The long and short barrels qualify two guns, and the SCAR and 416 are in the same category. If they keep the M4 they should keep the 416 and lose the SCAR. The weapons training needs to be homogeneous and muscle memory needs to be the rule.

    The only way to keep the SCAR is to phase out the M4 in my opinion. The guys say, "we like the M4 because we can get after market parts and modify them", but the command is in bed with the SCAR and has too much money invested (an opinion I heard voiced). The reciprocating bolt handle, and hot operating system [burning guys in transitions], among other things, are disliked by some of the guys fielding them.

    I look at the SCAR and it looks like a good gun, but a package without a lot of possible modifications, and the barrels are lighter profile than i like to see, so my personal gripe would be it seems like the barrel was lightened to make the gun competitive in weight on spec sheets. That's historically one of the only good reasons to see light barrel profile in military weapons- especially weapons fielded to SF (heavy silencer users). You gotta remember this thing is replacing an M4A1- the heavy barrel M4 varient. And it's probably heavier too.
    Last edited by HPLLC; 09-27-09 at 12:50.

  9. #49
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    i own both di and piston guns. the di's are colt and lmt. the pistons are lwrc and pof. my favorite is the lwrc in 6.8.

    most people that dont like the piston guns have never ran one. if they dont own one then they hate on them.

    my lwrc shoots sub moa all day long. my colt (6940)is right around 2 moa. neither one has had a hiccup yet.

    there is a reason why companies are going to piston. its a better system. its bad when you have people say "you aint using a sbr or suppressor, so you dont need one" as there only excuse.

    when people are given the option on which system they can receive, they go piston. whether it be hk or lwrc. just ask any special forces operator or dea agent for that matter.

    its plain and simple... if i can get my hands on what the best want, im a happy man.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwingmaniac View Post
    i own both di and piston guns. the di's are colt and lmt. the pistons are lwrc and pof. my favorite is the lwrc in 6.8.

    most people that dont like the piston guns have never ran one. if they dont own one then they hate on them.

    my lwrc shoots sub moa all day long. my colt (6940)is right around 2 moa. neither one has had a hiccup yet.

    there is a reason why companies are going to piston. its a better system. its bad when you have people say "you aint using a sbr or suppressor, so you dont need one" as there only excuse.

    when people are given the option on which system they can receive, they go piston. whether it be hk or lwrc. just ask any special forces operator or dea agent for that matter.

    its plain and simple... if i can get my hands on what the best want, im a happy man.
    rightwingmaniac,

    Your statements do not hold water.

    At M4C we have (among several) the following rule:

    In order to maintain a site that is an effective database of good information, it is best to post information that you have first hand knowledge of. If you are repeating information that you have been told or have read from another poster, it is best to disclose that in the opening of the post.

    As such, when a Staff member, Moderator, Industry Professional or Subject Matter Expert decides to comment here, it is always in keeping with the above rule. All other members are expected to post according to this rule as well.

    Since you made the statement "just ask any special forces operator or dea agent for that matter" I would have to ask you how many of these individuals have you had conversations with about the topic being discussed in this thread?

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