Lessons Learned In Combat

[Failure2Stop]

Great post on identifying individual failures. It's a damn hard thing to admit to an inadequacy or error that lead to severe injury to one's self, or others.
It seems just as hard to pick up the pieces and make the effort to improve.

My one contribution to this thread, and I am mostly making this statement because of those that have made comments or may be forming ideas that are not really correct with regard to training.

The military as a whole, and the USMC specifically, have learned from these kinds of mistakes that the marksmanship standards from years past were not sufficient on a modern battlefield. There have been significant improvements and changes to their programs that does teach how to fight with the weapons provided. Everything from speed reloads to multiple targets on the move to unknown distance night shoots are taught, evaluated, and ingrained, based on a standard. It is a shame that it took death and grevious bodily injury to get the system to listen to what has been said for many years, but at least it has finally happened.

If individual units are not performing up to the level of marksmanship training expected by the individuals I recomment that they look up the shoots and lesson plans and see what's up. Individual unit failure is just that, and they should, nay, must be held to task. After all, it's your life.

[Submariner]

The military as a whole, and the USMC specifically, have learned from these kinds of mistakes that the marksmanship standards from years past were not sufficient on a modern battlefield. There have been significant improvements and changes to their programs that does teach how to fight with the weapons provided....

True. Nevertheless, it's still tough to shoot well inside 50m using what he was taught on TD1 of TRICON I, squared up (so body armor is effective,) with an M16A4 and ACO/RCO. With the A2 stock and a 4X optic, something is compromised.

[Failure2Stop]

I don't want to hog the thread, so I will be brief.

True. Nevertheless, it's still tough to shoot well inside 50m using what he was taught on TD1 of TRICON I, squared up (so body armor is effective,) with an M16A4 and ACO/RCO. With the A2 stock and a 4X optic, something is compromised.

True as well.
With anyone shorter than about 6'5" there will be some degree of cant that will come into the torso/shoulders due to using body armor with plates and that ridiculous A2 stock, but mostly due to the 1.5" of eye relief in conjunction with the afore-mentioned sub-optimalities. The cant, unless excessive, will still present the bulk of the strike-face toward the threat; however, the position is mostly built for recoil control and mobility with the armor a secondary benefit since timely effective fire will make armor coverage a moot point.

I am not disagreeing, simply expounding.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

Thanks a ton for this information. I've always wondered how much the training that a lot people, including myself, put into weapon manipulation matters, and your story certainly shows that it does. If its any consolation, the information you've posted here can save lives, especially if it gets to the right people, and soon.

[BLACK LION]

Paul, God bless you and thank you dearly for your sacrifice in honor of your family and your country.

You're a phenomenal man. I know your family is proud of you. I know I am.

Regards...

+ 1000

[mrtim250]

First off, let me say THANK YOU for your service. Back in the day, when I wore Army green, we were taught like all the rest, basic marksmanship. It wasn't until I reenlisted, became an MP, that I was taught just a bit more than what I had learned in boot. My training or maybe my awareness came when I ETSd from the Army, was hired by a civilian LE agency and had friends who had been in fire fights some military, most on the street how important weapon manipulation was. I took that training to heart, even after I left the street and went into corrections.

Always, always be ware of your surroundings, even now after being retired 9 years, due some stupid convict and an a weight bar. I still to this day, observe my surroundings, my daily carry weapon is a Kel-Tec P-11. I practice, several times per week, drawing/reloading (always with an empty mag) that weapon depending on how many different ways I may carry my weapon. Usually its stuffed in my strong side front pocket, no holster, just pull it a go. When I first started, I would mange to get the front site snagged some how some way. After doing this for months now, I now feel secure enough that if something should go down, I feel confident that I can and will pull my weapon fire if needs be I can reload without loosing precious time.

True this is not an M-16A4 and all its configurations. I'm just no getting into the whole AR/M-16/M-4 thing having bought my first AR/M-4 a couple of months ago. I'm having to relearn or rather refresh my memory as to all the attributes and downfalls of this weapon system. Don't get me wrong, I dearly love my M-4, took some getting used to the collapsable stock was different having never had anything like that before. I'm finding that there is still a lot that I have to learn, about weapon manipulation with this weapon platform. Having not used one in a long time. I do think that being in any type of fire fight, and I've only had that distinct pleasure 1 time in my 22 years as a LEO one must be cognizant of not only your surroundings but be aware og ANY limitations that your body armor has.

I feel that todays military is not giving the quality of training that it could be or is capable of giving. All they are doing even in AIT is giving you enough, enough to get yourself seriously wounded or worse. I suppose that if you continue on as a Ranger/Spec Ops that a body is given a bit more specialized training as far as combat goes, I don't know, maybe they does, maybe they doesn't. I gues its the same today as it was when I was in, give em enough to get through and maybe they'll figure it out on their own as they go along. Well it shouldn't be that way, todays military should give the absolute best when it comes to being in a fire fight.

I do apologize for being so long winded, and maybe going a little off track a bit, but if my daughter had been given the proper training she wouldn't have blown out her T-12, fortunately she is still able to walk(with a cane), but she faces a life time of pain and agony, I see it every day and she's only 21. At least I was 43 when the state retired me 9 years ago, o I had most of my career behind me, would still love to be out there still going strong but I can only do what I can do. RSD is a terrible pain disease to live with and had my doc treated me right I'd still be out there kickin ass and taking well maybe some prisoners.

Paul, again let me say thank you, and you have every right to bitch. Stay frosty all.

mrtim250

[JHC]

I have the strong sense that the gunfighter training in our ground forces - while maybe not Larry Vickers Level III - is not bad and vastly advanced from even 15 years ago. From David Bellavia's "House to House" to "Boots on the Ground" (author escapes me) and inumerable other accounts of urban combat we've seen our line units perform some pretty impressive feats of close combat gunfighting with surprisingly light casualties compared to what some talking head pundits predicted.

Continuous improvement should be just that but kudos are in order to all those who've had a hand in this.

[mrtim250]

OH, I by all means agree that todays training has vastly improved, compared to even just 10 years ago. We have been bitten, and have learned from our mistakes, but on the other hand we still have a ways to go too. All I'm trying to say is that more of our guys n gals could benefit from some advance training, be it through military or civilian trainers, or maybe military members who have taken the advance training given by Larry Vickers and the other fine training teams out there. Bring it back to their individual units and train train, train. On the other hand, training is one thing, you have to put it to use also. One needs to train until what you have learned comes as second nature. But as with anything else, you can have the best equipment, the best training, the best unit, etc. but shit happens, and then all bets are off.


mrtim250

[decodeddiesel]

I hate to use such a coy internet saying as "epic", but seriously this is perhaps the most epic thread on this entire site which is saying a lot.

Thank you for everything.

[RetreatHell]

I have the strong sense that the gunfighter training in our ground forces - while maybe not Larry Vickers Level III - is not bad and vastly advanced from even 15 years ago. From David Bellavia's "House to House" to "Boots on the Ground" (author escapes me) and inumerable other accounts of urban combat we've seen our line units perform some pretty impressive feats of close combat gunfighting with surprisingly light casualties compared to what some talking head pundits predicted.

Continuous improvement should be just that but kudos are in order to all those who've had a hand in this.

While I totally understand what you're saying, don't forget that there were several other soldiers in that house who didn't fare so well and were wounded soon after making entry. I'm sure they could've benefited from better weapon manipulation training. Not saying that would've prevented them from being wounded, but it is definitely likely that not all of them would have been wounded and would've been able to aid Bellavia and help prevent his dick from being .. err, "injured."

I don't want to say too much about that specific gunfight in Bellavia's book, because I don't want to ruin it for those who have not yet had a chance to read House to House. I would seriously recommend everyone here read that book however, as it is one of only two books that actually made my adrenaline pump as I was reading certain parts of it... with the other book being Lone Survivor. Both of those books are outstanding and great reads, and are my two all time favorite books on Iraq and Afghanistan!

Anyhow, back on topic, of course our military's training among line units is greatly enhanced from 15 years ago. That is not debatable. But they have a long way to go to reach an optimum level of which they are more than capable of achieving. Most of the men in these infantry units are highly motivated and squared the **** away, they just have not been given all the "tools" to reach their peak performance in combat. As mrti250 mentioned, if only the squad leaders (or other NCO's in leadership and instructor positions) were sent to some of these great training programs and instructors like TRICON, EAG Tactical, Magpul Dynamics, Larry Vickers, etc., then they could return to their units and pass on that knowledge to their fellow brothers-in-arms.

Last week when I was watching the news while getting ready in the morning, they showed a video clip of a soldier in Afghanistan firing unaimed rounds off in the general direction of the enemy. Suppressing fire is fine, and I couldn't see what he was shooting at and that's not the point I'm trying to make here. What really jumped out at me was that he was gripping the VFG like a damn tennis racket and his M4's collapsible stock was way up and out of his shoulder, with the buffer tube section of the stock sticking up an inch from the top of his shoulder.

He was probably firing around 2 rounds per second, if that. So he wasn't firing that fast at all, but because of the poor stock placement in his shoulder (i.e. not utilizing the "pocket" of the shoulder), and his non-aggressive tennis-racket-grip on his vertical foregrip, his rifle's muzzle was bouncing around like crazy as he was firing. I guarantee his rounds were flying all over the place. At the rate he was firing (he was also kneeling/sitting on the ground), his muzzle should've hardly moved at all as he fired.

Those are very simple things that can easily be fixed by literally one afternoon of instruction/training out on the range. They're just little mistakes that are easily fixable and can make a lot of difference in combat.

That's just one small example. Sorry if I didn't explain it in the best possible way, and I know that it may not be the best example, but it's what popped up in my head right now.

Semper Fi',

Paul