Lessons Learned In Combat

[RetreatHell]

I hate to use such a coy internet saying as "epic", but seriously this is perhaps the most epic thread on this entire site which is saying a lot.

Thank you for everything.

Thanks for the kind words... seriously, man.

I had no idea that this thread would generate the great response that it has. I hope that maybe, if the right people get ahold of it, TTPs can be changed for the better.

[Failure2Stop]

As mrti250 mentioned, if only the squad leaders (or other NCO's in leadership and instructor positions) were sent to some of these great training programs and instructors like TRICON, EAG Tactical, Magpul Dynamics, Larry Vickers, etc., then they could return to their units and pass on that knowledge to their fellow brothers-in-arms.

There are schools and courses within the military that are tasked with this very duty. I cannot say that every instructor at every school are the equivalents of Larry Vickers, Super Dave, Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzales, Travis Haley, Chris Costa, Kyle Lamb, or the other excellent instructors in the civilian market, but they can be very good. Primary words here- CAN BE. It depends highly on two factors: instructor competancy and individual effort. Without the latter, the former will not emerge. Frankly, the problem within the military right now is not lack of instructors, but rather a lack of motivation and desire by the masses.

The knowledge is here. The gunfighting knowledge in the military is better than it ever has been. Most of the top instructors came from the military. That is not to say that a civilian cannot teach the same things with succcess, simply that answers lie within the system as well, at least if you can take advantage of the skilled instructors before they get disgusted with the lack of interest and leave for greener pastures.

If people were serious about gunfighting, there would be a drastic increase in ability. Before we were shooting people and being shot at, my guys groaned when we would go out and train basic weapon skills. Afterward, they understood. How many guys in the military, and combat arms specifically, think that they need more training on small arms? It is far less than most think. Who is to blame for it then? Everyone. At least everyone that is not demanding more.

I had no idea that this thread would generate the great response that it has. I hope that maybe, if the right people get ahold of it, TTPs can be changed for the better.

There are courses, shoots, and lesson plans that cover all kinds of combat marksmanship and manipulation skills. All one has to do is find a qualified instructor and ask for the training. As it is there are many that are required.

The people with the skill and task to improve individual skill exist within the community. All it takes is effort. Unfortunately, too many people lack the will to seek these people out and improve their abilities. If someone wants to spend their own money and head to an outside course, good on 'em, but that should only be done after the requirments within the service are reached. Some services offer more than others, and some individuals are better instructors than others, but the information and opportunity exists.

ETA- Rereading this post I think I may seem to be coming down on RH, which I assure everyone, I am not.
My point is that we HAVE learned the lessons, long ago, and we are trying our damnedest to get it out there, but many people would rather play on their PS3 or go golfing than work on the things that save lives.

[RetreatHell]

F2S, no worries brother, I don't look at your post as coming down on me at all. I'm very glad to hear that better training is available nowadays. And I totally understand what you're saying about the lack of motivation amongst individual warriors, and the idea that they are already "the best of the best" and such, to make them want to really take advantage of some of the great training opportunities that are available to them.

The high level of confidence instilled into the minds of soldiers and marines starting in boot camp can be a double edged sword: on the one hand, beliving that you're the best-trained, most badass warrior on the face of the planet and that not even Zeus himself could stop you from completing your objective is a great thing, at the same time you need to be aware that you can always be a better and even more badass warrior than you already are (or think you are). I had a bit of that gong on myself back in the day, but combat can be a very humbling reaity check, that's for sure.

Just wish I'd have gotten a second chance to improve my gunfighting skills while I was still active duty, instead of now so late after the fact as just a civilian and wounded warrior. Now I only hope that by getting my story of what happened to me, and how and why it happened, out there via forums like this and also in person at classes, that I can get the message across of just how important it is to take the initiative and seek out more training, or just to take advantage of the training that's already offered to you, and to improve upon your current skillsets and learn completely new ones as well... as it could just save your life or the lives of the men on your left and right.

Semper Fi',

Paul

[Sierrahotel83]

All I can say is that this thread has fast become one of my favorites Ive realize. As some one who would like to Join the Marine Corps Reserve while in college, and a definate gun enthusiast I feel that it is only right to know how to use my weapons to the best of my ability. The downfall to being in college and working full time is that not only am I having the usual financial constraints associated with being in school but also a lack of time. While obviously not a good excuse given what some on here work through to get good training, I have taken this as a good source of inspiration to not waste so much of my free time, and get in shape, so that I can join.
Another problem is that I really do not know anyone around where I live to train with, and shoot with.
I think one thing I am going to try is get the Magpul Dynamics Art of the Tactical Carbine DVDs. I think this would be a step in the right direction. any other suggestions and insight would very much appreciated.
Pete

[RetreatHell]

All I can say is that this thread has fast become one of my favorites Ive realize. As some one who would like to Join the Marine Corps Reserve while in college, and a definate gun enthusiast I feel that it is only right to know how to use my weapons to the best of my ability. The downfall to being in college and working full time is that not only am I having the usual financial constraints associated with being in school but also a lack of time. While obviously not a good excuse given what some on here work through to get good training, I have taken this as a good source of inspiration to not waste so much of my free time, and get in shape, so that I can join.
Another problem is that I really do not know anyone around where I live to train with, and shoot with.
I think one thing I am going to try is get the Magpul Dynamics Art of the Tactical Carbine DVDs. I think this would be a step in the right direction. any other suggestions and insight would very much appreciated.
Pete

I think getting the Magpul Dynamics DVDs are a good (first) step in the right direction. The first time I watched Volume 1 of AOTTC, my mouth dropped open when I watched and listened to Costa as he explained why you need to square up to your target to take advantage of your ballistic plates. It seemed like such an obvious thing to do after I saw him explain it, and I couldn't believe I didn't know that back when I was in the Corps, as I firmly believe that I wouldn't have been wounded had I squared up to my target and allowed my SAPI plates to do their intended job.

I also began practicing speed reloads, tactical reloads and a proper grip with my support hand on the hand guard/vertical fore grip (among many other techniques) via dry fire in my house, and then later on the range with live fire. I think watching the art of the tactical carbine DVDs, and practicing the techniques in those DVDs in your house via dry fire, is a great way for a beginner to start learning some of the basic weapon manipulation skills.

Then I would highly recommend saving the cash for a carbine course. Just put back what you can, when you can. If it takes you a year to save up all the $$$, so what? It's all good, man.

As for not having anyone to shoot/train with, I completely understand that, brother. Up until my last carbine course with TRICON, I was in the same boat. But I met a couple of really cool dudes at that class. One of them is Mate, a member of this forum, and I befriended him in that class and found out that he and several of his friends go out to this private range almost every Monday to train and run drills, and now I go with them. So now I have several really cool, like-minded guys to do some training with on a regular basis, which is great and keeps my skills up to par so that I don't have to spend the first day in my next carbine course getting back up to speed with the basics.

That's why I would also highly recommend taking a local carbine course as well, so that way you can meet people there who live relatively close by to you and that way you can continue to hang out and train with them long after the class is over. However, of course, this is highly dependent on whether or not you have access to any carbine (or handgun, etc..) courses nearby where you live. If you live in an area where none of these great private training companies visit, then that means you'll have to travel to them (possibly even out of state), which probably also means you won't meet anybody in your class that lives near you. If that's the case, then the next best thing would be for you and a friend (or friends) of yours, who lives near you and is interested in all this stuff as well, to both travel to and attend a carbine course together, so that when you get back home you and your friend(s) can keep on training and going over what you learned in your class.

That's all I got for you man, hope this helps.

Semper Fi',

Paul

[Sierrahotel83]

Thanks I was for a very short time enlisted in the National Guard... but got put out of the Guard do to my weight and not being able to ship to Basic... while in I attended drills every month at one drill as they didn't know exactly what to do with those of who were prebasic they had us do weapon drills with the other soldiers. in that I was fortunate to learn some things like squaring myself with the target to take advantage of the plates in the armor.

On the point of the classes I am trying to save for a class but it seems that the closest that I can find them is in Tenn. at Tactical Responce does anyone have any experiance with them good or bad? I think this is where I will need to attend... but I would like to take a Magpul Dynamics class. At $400 it souldn't be that hard to get the money together but the time will start to become a problem.

Thank you for the input.
Pete

[Sierrahotel83]

wow just figured they are 5 1/2 hours away... well it is time to start saving and getting ammo...

just a side question if I plan on getting an optic in the future would it be advisable to try to get the optic first or take the class ASAP.
Pete

[Gutshot John]

I'd say take the class.

People have been using iron sights for a very long time.

No optic will make up for lack of training.

[Sierrahotel83]

that is what I am leaning towards. I think that switching to a red dot wouldn't be too bad after. and I do agree that it would be better to get the training.

[RogerinTPA]

wow just figured they are 5 1/2 hours away... well it is time to start saving and getting ammo...

just a side question if I plan on getting an optic in the future would it be advisable to try to get the optic first or take the class ASAP.
Pete

Another vote for taking the class and omit the RDS for now. It will allow you added proficiency in using the iron sights with confidence if your RDS goes down. I am tempted to practice drills with just the irons, just to see how far I've been spoiled in using a RDS. In the last course I took (VTAC1.5), there was a geeky kid with glasses (early 20's), using old school LBE and iron sights. He was a very accurate shooter and smoked half the class.