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Thread: Weapon failures failed for US troops death

  1. #1
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    Weapon failures failed for US troops death

    Of course the story only a general report, no cause or what type of failures were reported.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091011/...apons_failures


    WASHINGTON – In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

    When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

    Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

    Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

    A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

    Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.

    Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.

    The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives.

    Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in.

    U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

    "The M4 has served us well but it's not as good as it needs to be," Coburn said.

    Battlefield surveys show that nearly 90 percent of soldiers are satisfied with their M4s, according to Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, head of the Army office that buys soldier gear. Still, the rifle is continually being improved to make it even more reliable and lethal.

    Fuller said he's received no official reports of flawed weapons performance at Wanat. "Until it showed up in the news, I was surprised to hear about all this," he said.

    The study by Douglas Cubbison of the Army Combat Studies Institute at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., hasn't been publicly released. Copies of the study have been leaked to news organizations and are circulating on the Internet.

    Cubbison's study is based on an earlier Army investigation and interviews with soldiers who survived the attack at Wanat. He describes a well-coordinated attack by a highly skilled enemy that unleashed a withering barrage with AK-47 automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades.

    The soldiers said their weapons were meticulously cared for and routinely inspected by commanders. But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute.

    The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot. The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions.

    Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down.

    On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine.

    "My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

    The soldiers also had trouble with their M249 machine guns, a larger weapon than the M4 that can shoot up to 750 rounds per minute.

    Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

    Bogar was killed during the firefight, but no one saw how he died, according to the report.

    ___

    On the Net:

    U.S./NATO forces in Afghanistan: http://www.nato.int/isaf/

    Army weapons: http://tinyurl.com/yk95j8z

    Weapon manufacturer: http://www.colt.com/mil/M4.asp

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  2. #2
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    Seems like someone has an agenda.
    Last edited by JC_; 10-11-09 at 09:59.

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    This is a training and fire discipline issue. "Spray and Pray" only serves to deplete ammo supplies. You cannot miss fast enough to change the outcome of the battle.
    Last edited by RogerinTPA; 10-11-09 at 20:01.
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    There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

    Anyone here see another, potentially more compelling reason they were almost overrun?
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    In both cases described, the weapons overheated. Barrels were described as white hot. Though it doesn't say directly, the implication is that the M4's were being fired on full auto.

    I'm not sure if the M4 & M249 are more affected by overheating than other weapons, but I would think that barrel overheating is something that would happen to any other weapon given the same rate of fire. Improvements to the alloy of steel used to make the barrel, composite materials (ceramics?) or perhaps a novel method of barrel cooling might help.

    Even in WWII, some air-cooled machine guns had to have the barrels changed out as they got hot. Water cooled machine guns could fire longer, but were heavier. Portability meant having to deal with hot barrels. This is nothing new.

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    That and the military is not very progressive or informed in the area of weapons maintenance. Most believe that cleaning a weapon to the point of being destructive to the finish for inspections and then applying very minimal lubricant to the weapon to keep the dust off of them is the way to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    Anyone here see another, potentially more compelling reason they were almost overrun?
    I'm going to take lack of support for 500 Alex.
    Stick a small unit out on its own and you end up asking individual weapons and troops to do a job theys houldn't be doing. When stuff gets used outside of its design purpose or doctrine it can lead to problems.
    Last edited by m24shooter; 10-11-09 at 12:00.
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    I dunno. Going to an HBAR seems unlikely.

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    The article makes it seem like they were firing a lot of rounds. While the M4 isn't perfect, it's going to be difficult to find a rifle that isn't bothered at all by going cyclic for magazine after magazine when trying to stop an enemy assault.

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    yah

    Quote Originally Posted by rharris2163 View Post
    This is a training and fire discipline issue. "Spay and Pray" only serves to deplete ammo supplies. You cannot miss fast enough to change the outcome of the battle.
    One of the guys fired 600 rounds out of his M249. How many hits do you think he got?
    The only justification I can think of is trying to maintain sufficient stand-off distance so that you don't have to worry about Danger Close on air and fire support. Once the enemy is inside the perimeter you lose that asset.
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