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Thread: Weapon failures failed for US troops death

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Stewie View Post
    These statements are misleading. Yes the gun will continue to fire but accuracy will diminish as you are beginning to burnup the barrel. You may argue that this is wrong but I would say that any machinegunner that ever humped extra barrels would disagree with you.

    I have seen abused barrels in the 249, 240B, RPK, and PKM that would keyhole at 10m qual. Just because you can, doesnt mean you should.

    DOC


    Just pointing out a gun is simply not going to stop firing at all if its been laid on for a few hundred rounds AND properly lubed.

    Id expect damage with an 800rd linked belt and laying through it with one squeeze....and like I said Ive personally seen/laid through more than 600-800 rounds in QUICK succession on a SAW without an issues but a squirt bottle of CLP was standing by.

    Especially in a fixed position being constantly manned...there is no excuse for lack of cleaning, lubing, and/or 2nd barrel standing by.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

    I'd love to see the weapon that can keep going.

    People always talk about AKs (and yes I know the 249 is a LMG and not a rifle) and how ultra reliable they are but that isn't really the case. They can keep firing longer than a M4 but unless you are wearing asbestos gloves you can't hold it after dumping a few mags. I've seen them catch on fire after 200 rounds.

    Until somebody solves the "heat from the friction of the bullet" issue most small arms will have problems after approx. 100 continuous rounds and most belts will start choking around 500.

    This is why you can't buzz saw everything in a sustained fight. If you can't give the weapon a chance to cool, it's gonna choke.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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  3. #53
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    It wouldn't be a terrible idea to design and issue a piston upper for the AR that functioned a bit more like an AK (IE BCG rides way different), nor would it be a terrible idea to start buying magazines like the P-mag or E-mag instead of the standard aluminum ones.

    The problem with putting a well engineered piston upper on an AR is that it's going to raise the receivers height by .25-.5 inches.
    "Life is short, but the years are long." - Robert A. Heinlein

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by armakraut View Post
    It wouldn't be a terrible idea to design and issue a piston upper for the AR that functioned a bit more like an AK (IE BCG rides way different), nor would it be a terrible idea to start buying magazines like the P-mag or E-mag instead of the standard aluminum ones.

    The problem with putting a well engineered piston upper on an AR is that it's going to raise the receivers height by .25-.5 inches.

    Piston AR's come with their own set of problems. The 416 has not been trouble free at all. AK's can and do jam. LWRC is constantly implementing design changes to improve things and fix issues.



    And I don't see the need for it. People talk about piston guns being able to go XXXX amount of rounds without cleaning. Soldiers basic load is 210 rounds...many carry more than that but even TWICE that is only 420 rounds. A DI AR can easily go through a double basic load, and no one is going to be carrying several thousand rounds of ammo where it MAY make a difference. Pat Rogers has a TE DI Colt in the 1X,XXX range now without being cleaned...just relubed..


    Id rather see an Army wide definitive lube procedure, better/more cleaning supplies, hammer forged barrels and a better round in the 70GR range than paying money for piston guns that have their own issues.

  5. #55
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    AK's do jam, any mechanical object will fail given enough time, but few people will deny the AK is more reliable, more durable and more forgiving than an AR in sub-optimal conditions.

    I'd rather see the military start replacing the uppers with something similar to the daewoo and replacing the aluminum mags.

    At the every lease there are a lot of improvements that could be made to existing AR's. One would be a right side charging handle like the AK, VZ58 and M14 have. It would aid immensely in manually manipulating the BCG.
    "Life is short, but the years are long." - Robert A. Heinlein

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by variablebinary View Post
    12 mags is 360 rounds.

    In 30 minutes that equates to 12 rounds per minute, or one round every 5 seconds. That sure as hell isn't spray and pray.

    What's the acceptable rate of fire when under siege, outnumbered by Taliban, and your fellow solider are dying? I'd really like to know.

    Dont always assume our soldiers are inept failures.
    Dude - I've spent aprox 1/2 of the time since 9-11 in either Iraq or Afghanistan. I've been shot at and shot people in both AO's

    Taliban are not dumb, they will try to flank you and supress you so you don't know where they are moving to. Its not like playing wack-a-mole with Madhi Army types in '04 Iraq. Your not goint to get a great amount of enemy exposure.

    I will say for 99% of the time that I have seen it, is that "suppressive" fire, isn't. Accurate fire suppresses and causes casualties, inaccurate fire wastes ammo.


    DMR - I agree with your points, a lot of the COP's my 11 years old and I could have overrun due to FUBAR layout and lack of prep.
    The old M63 AA mount would give a similar setup to the FN mount (albiet w/o gun sheild).


    There is nothing wrong with the M4 (well I'd have everyone go M4A1 as the 3rd burst system makes my head bleed with its stupidity, and I'd remove the auto-sears from 3/4 of the guns. Combat Marksmanship is terrible these days - judging distance and placing accurate fire off the KD range is lacking.
    What is needed is more realistic training for soldiers.

    Lube - for ****s sakes people, its 2009, we have been fighting for 8 years in Afghan, and guns are still not getting properly lubed That is a HUGE chain of command failure.

    Mags -- PMAG's have a ****ing NSN now - use it.

    Ammo - M855 may not be the best, its way better than it was in the past, and its way better than 7.62x39 for shooting people with. That said a new 5.56mm ammo like the BH/Barnes 70gr OTM would IMHO be better for both accuracy and terminal effects since we are not fighting an enemy in soft armor and plates.

    I carried a M16FOW for over 20 years - I've never been let down by one, and if I all of a sudden needed to lay my ass on the line today, that system would be my first pick.
    Kevin S. Boland
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  7. #57
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    I carried a M16FOW for over 20 years I've never been let down by one, and if I all of a sudden needed to lay my ass on the line today, that system would be my first pick.
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    That is that!

  8. #58
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    As things trickle out.

    200 Taliban attack, Over 100 are killed.

    Apache's where used



    Unit was just scheduled to rotate out.
    Last edited by KevinB; 10-12-09 at 11:06.
    Kevin S. Boland
    Manager, Federal Sales
    FN America, LLC
    Office: 703.288.3500 x181 | Mobile: 407-451-4544 | Fax: 703.288.4505
    www.fnhusa.com

  9. #59
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    The original version of this story seems to have been front page on every news outlet the past 24 hours. How does shit like this happen? All for the sake of drama? More bad things to say about the military, perhaps??

    It is a mistake to blame the weapons for the failures of people, this for many reasons. Least of all to be fair to the weapon, most of all to fix the real problems.



    Excellent post, Kevin.
    "Facit Omina Voluntas = The Will Decides" - Army Chief


  10. #60
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    Kevin:

    This topic has hit every gun forums, I've seen you replied to another forum's post. I've read in more than one post from soldiers returning from that area that only special operation forces are issued full auto version of M4s. Other soldiers including the personnel reported in the article were only issued the version with 3 round burst. Is that correct? If so, the article has a big hole in it.

    Thanks.

    If you have to put a compensator on a 9mm, maybe you should buy panties instead of briefs - Ken Hackathorn via Facebook live

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