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Thread: Weapon failures failed for US troops death

  1. #71
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    This is merely a case of back seat driving, it's a tough war and when the crap starts raining down the only solution sometimes is to put as much lead down range as you can to keep them from getting the time to fire accurately at you and your buddies.

    The remedy is more boots on the ground and more assets available, period!

  2. #72
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    Spray and Pray.

    Quote Originally Posted by westcoastfrog View Post
    AW fire does not automatically mean "spray and pray". Just because every round doesn't hit an actual human being doesn't mean it doesn't have a critical role on the battlefield. Having been on the receiving and sending side i can say that AW fire is absolutely an effective/essential tool in a firefight. I would question anybody's tactical experience and knowledge that couldn't see the advantages of having AW support in any fight whether that fight be in the mountains or in the house (yes, AW's are used in the house and work). agree or disagree....just my two cents.
    I agree with you West Coast. There is a reason that every fire team has an automatic rifleman. Our doctrine is to win with superior firepower. Some cases that firepower comes from volume of fire versus the amount of weapons pointing downrange. I don't want to read to much into the article because it deosn't tell us much. But the M4s we are issued are semi and burst. You don't get true full auto with a burst weapon. I believe that our soldiers were delivering well aimed fire from cover to targets that were also in cover. You can't keep your head up long enough to wait for an aggressor to break cover and manuever when your position is getting hammered. Believe me it sucks when you are under fire from multiple positions and you don't have a target to engage. The best you can hope for is to keep them honest by sending as many rounds downrange as humanly possible. No one wants the fight to devolve into CQC as you are overrun.

    BTW, M4A1s (Semi - Full Auto) are issued to SF and other SpeOps types. Soldiers are modifying their issued M4s to the M4A1 configuration by switching our the triggers. The Army addressed the Mod issue in the August edition of Preventive Maintenance Monthly.

    Doc Williams
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  3. #73
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    Let me throw in a similar story to this. Back in 2006-07 I was on a contract in Iraq (Anbar province) where there was very little outside oversight. On one particular day we were involved in a firefight with the local "hajji's". We were outfitted with Colt M16A2 rifles, Bushmaster M4geries, a few Colt M4's and M249's..

    My T/L (former SEAL) blasted approx. 900 rounds through his weapon (Bushy) in 45 minutes and his bolt had a catastrophic failure.

    Another person armed with an M249 put about 1200 rds down range. All in all I believe that there were approx. 6000 rounds expended.

    Point of this story is that there was no fire control or discipline and when I asked the M249 gunner what he was shooting at he said "suppressive fire on the enemy." I asked what "suppressive fire" we can't even see what the hell is going on. Not only was the whole thing absurd, but had it not been for a few enterprising individuals most of the team ammo supply would have been depleted thereby leaving us open in the event of another engagement. All of the weapons worked as they were designed and in the case of the one Bushy bolt since these weapons were previously used and there were no maintenance records, schedules or anything else who knows how many rounds had been put through them. And of course the full auto fire didn't help.



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  4. #74
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    I once put 3, 200 round drums through a saw in less than ten minutes, no issues. You take care of it and it will take care of you.
    I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. - John Adams

    The AK guys are all about the reach around. - Garand Thumb.

  5. #75
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    If you have time, check out this video package on the soldiers of Company Viper. There is some great footage of a firefight in the same AO as where this most recent event happened.
    While watching the video, they show and talk about weapons failures, particularly the M240. They do show the unit laying down a ton of "suppressive" fire during the course of the video package.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33107901/vp/33231712

    (yea, I know. it's MSNBC. It is a good story though)
    http://www.pho-tac.com/
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  6. #76
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    Quick Question

    I read through the Troops Trained for Auto Fire thread to see if I could post this question there, but it didn't seem relevant to that conversation, so I decided to bring this thread back for a bit to see if anyone could answer my question.

    How would an AK handle having 12 mags dumped through it in less then half an hour? Hypothetically of course.

  7. #77
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    Depends. A friend of mine on a PSC contract had his (Iraqi AK issued) "grenade" from the first round fired through it.
    Last edited by JHC; 10-13-09 at 20:42.
    "Whatever it's for; it wasn't possible until now!!!" - KrampusArms

  8. #78
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    What AK? Firing what ammo? How was it maintained? How was it lubed?

    There is a persistent belief out there that the AK is somehow magical and immune to maintenance requirements, impervious to QC issues, and unconcerned with what it is fed simply because it is an "AK". Nothing could be further from the truth. If you talk to the guys who have spent time in the sandbox (especially working with the locals) they will tell you that they've encountered plenty of AK's that don't run.

    Any individual specimen may handle it just fine or may choke like a politician trying to tell the truth depending on a number of factors. It's impossible to say.

    What can be said with relative certainty is that there's no assault rifle on earth that can do mag dump after mag dump without encountering a problem sooner or later.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    The original version of this story seems to have been front page on every news outlet the past 24 hours. How does shit like this happen? All for the sake of drama? More bad things to say about the military, perhaps??
    Exactly. Everyone likes drama and people can exploit it to further their agenda.

    From what I've now been told the paper Cubbison was working on isn't even finished and the leaked version is being misquoted and taken out of context by the press. Failures with SAWs are being attributed to M4s etc.
    Last edited by MPi-KMS-72; 10-13-09 at 20:40.

  10. #80
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    .......
    Last edited by MIKE G; 05-09-17 at 00:25.

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