Carbine Grip/Stance some dryfire drills.

[oregonshooter]

I got my AR15 built finally and have been working on dryfire (1) drill so far but need more ideas.

The drill I'm doing now is a basic reload from chest harness.

What are you favorites? Also if you have suggestions for improving the way I'm doing the reload please don't hold back. The AR is new to me so I need all the help I can get on its MOA.

http://oregonshooter.com/share/ar15_dryfire_01.mov (0.3 MB)

[MisterWilson]

Here's something I found worthwhile:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=5&t=212137

[BushmasterFanBoy]

First off, try to hold the gun farther out. The magwell grip thing is a pretty dated method. Take a look at some 3-gun competitors gripping the gun nearly all the way out, with their left elbow up and in line with the bore.

This method lets you drive the gun much faster from target to target by increasing your ability to stop the guns movement very quickly. By gripping it further to the rear, like you were, the gun has a tendency to "wobble" when stopping at another target. You have to fight this wobble before you can break the shot, or you can eliminate it by gripping the gun farther out towards the muzzle. Keeping the support elbow higher up next to the bore, helps mitigate recoil IMHO, enabling faster follow up shots.

Also, during your reload, it looked as if you were reaching across the chest rig to the pouches on the right. This is bad juju, as the fastest reloads will always come from pouches that are closest to your lower left. In a chest rig, this means you should index the mags on your left side for the fastest reload. In the overall picture however, it means that the best setup is probably something on your waist, such as a belt mounted mag pouch.

Like you, I'm also drawing a few blanks on dry fire drills, but I usually do the following during every session:

1. Ready-to-fire: I time my high-ready to dry fire on 8" circle on upper chest target at 10yd, my par time is usually .6 sec, but with such a short interval, its often times difficult to know if you beat the par or by how much. (I use a much higher ready stance than you are BTW, so don't be alarmed at my par time, as I'm keeping the gun just underneath the target, so I can see over my optic.)

2. Speed reload: Same target and distance, start with carbine shouldered and on target, bolt back, on fire. Chamber check, drop the mag, grab new one and release from redi-mod, insert, tap the BAD, and bang. Par time is 2.5 secs. (This one is a bit different for me since I've only been running a redi-mod for a short time now, and the BAD only a tad longer than that)

3. Transition: Same target and distance, carbine on target, bolt closed, selector on safe. Dry fire on target, then transition to pistol from 6004 holster with retention and fire on target with pistol. Par Time 2 secs

I also practice tac-reloads, as well as other drills with my pistol, such as drawing, pressing out, speed reload, and tac-reloads. I like to dry fire every day, but its much closer to every other day to be honest.

Just keep up the good work, most guys who go out and by a rifle don't seek much instruction, professional or otherwise. You're displaying a lot of interest, and hopefully some of the really good shooters will be in here to give some of their practice regimens.

There's a tacked thread on drills in this forum at the top, some of which are dry fire, I've found these to be pretty helpful.

[markm]

First off, try to hold the gun farther out. The magwell grip thing is a pretty dated method. Take a look at some 3-gun competitors gripping the gun nearly all the way out, with their left elbow up and in line with the bore.

I've messed with this new aged homo way of holding the rifle and find it to be not one bit better.

I can pull my weapon into my body just as well by grabbing the mag well or anywhere in between.

And common sense dictates that holding any object steady is easier done closer to your body than arm extended farther out. (plus, you end up looking like a match homo)

I laugh every time one of these ding dongs comes up with the newest and greatest goofy way to hold the carbean handguard. You can't sell training and stuff if you do things the way everyone else already is, I suppose.

[oregonshooter]

Bmf
I use to use the vtac method with a vdg but find the magwell to be more comfortable, faster and more fluid to go from patrol carry to target but most of all a common method I can use on my other carbine the MP5 clone.

It is slower at target transitions but I'm ok with that.

I shoot 3gun a few times a year and while they are fast they are not on he same mission.

The across body reload came from magpul vid and consolidating mags to my right ideology. The fullest mags are always on the right this way.

Speed load from right tac lad from left . Not sold on it and will try from left again but before I found myself grabbing the second mag in by default.

[CGoodwin]

Exactly my thoughts! I teach my patients the same approach to movement, in that close to body positions mean greater stability. The thought process that the match gunners use is that lengthening their grip makes the weapon a more contigous part of their bodies for faster reaction and greater control. My thought is that excess weight at the foreend of the weapon is the only reason for poor control with a close to body grip.

Try holding the weapon in the firing position and time your endurance with a mag grip versus a end of barrel grip and see what your times look like! Much greater muscle efficiency with your arms closer to your center.

Time on target is an interesting question as well. I believe that rotation of the barrel around the center of the body is the issue at hand. So, obviously we are looking at levers and torque. Therefore, a longer lever will require less force to move. BUT, it all depends upon where one places the force, the load, and the fulcrum ON the lever!

I'll be interested to hear responses to this one as well.

Back to the original poster's question, my dry fire drill consist of the reload, FTE/FTF admin reload, primary to secondary and secondary to primary weapon transition, low ready to target, and primary to support shoulder transition.

[LOKNLOD]

I've messed with this new aged homo way of holding the rifle and find it to be not one bit better.

I can pull my weapon into my body just as well by grabbing the mag well or anywhere in between.

And common sense dictates that holding any object steady is easier done closer to your body than arm extended farther out. (plus, you end up looking like a match homo)

I laugh every time one of these ding dongs comes up with the newest and greatest goofy way to hold the carbean handguard. You can't sell training and stuff if you do things the way everyone else already is, I suppose.

This is probably its own topic, but since it's been breached... I disagree. I thought some of the newer (to me) shooting styles looked a bit odd at first, but after training and trigger time with them, I think they're very effective. The magwell grip is indeed steady for holding the gun but since I'm not a hostage taker, I'm more worried about shooting the gun than pointing it at stuff. The aggressive "match homo" grip/stance is all about leverage and recoil control, not holding the gun steady for long periods of time. It allows one to direct the recoil straight back, and drive the gun fast both in terms of multiple shots on one target and between multiple targets. Maybe I've bought a sales pitch hook, line, and sinker, but I don't think so -- compared to the other stuff I've tried it works better for me (including all the iterations of traditional grip, magwell grip, VFG close, VFG far, whatever).

Honestly I don't care if I look like a homo if I'm the one doing the shooting and getting the hits. Guess that makes me the pitcher, not the catcher -- I'm okay with that if it's bullets being thrown.

That said, there are lots of folks doing it cause they saw it online or wherever, and probably don't understand what they're trying to do or why, other than it looks new, and it may not be working for them.

ETA: Skimming my reply it sounded a little more smart-ass and defensive than I intended it. Apologies. Just didn't think it was worthwhile to dismiss it as a "match homo" grip or discount it because it happens to be more "cool" at the moment. Back to regularly scheduled dry-fire drills thread.

[Failure2Stop]

As far as grip goes I used to be a proponent of a magwell/near magwell VFG hold. There are many people, myself included, that can shoot well from that position. I have taken high shooter at more than a few classes with the grip. But performing at a high level with a certain grip does not make it the best. There are lots of guys that can shoot a Weaver better than a lot of guys can shoot a Modern Iso, but that does not make it the best. Learning to drive the sights, sight appreciation and permissible variation, and trigger control (all performed without flinch or anticipation) are the big hurdles to being good with the rifle/carbine, as well as the pistol.

Anyway, despite the fact that I can perform to a high standard with a magwell/close in VFG, I perform better with a more extended support arm. It provides greater stability during movement, reduced bounce in rapid (.15 to .20 split) semi-auto, greater control in full-auto/burst, faster sight recovery, and more positive control when transitioning to dispersed targets, all without potentially blocking the ejection port/ejection port cover. This is not a Magpul/Costa/Haley/Vickers/VTAC/Lamb/or anyone else's technique. It is an evolution of the grip that came out of people perfecting the art of shooting as accurately as they need to as fast as they can. There are certainly constraints to the technique- so if you have T-Rex arms, wear body armor and are saddled with an A4 fence-post with a TA31F and all sorts of doo-dads attached, there will be some concessions and compromises. As it is, there are several variations of the technique for the support hand and arm and degree of blade in the upper body, of which I have semi-firm opinions (about as firm as Jell-O though, primarily due to individual differences in body structure).

I have literally turned shooters around in an hour or two by simply shifting their grip. I deal with a lot of shooters that are not familiar with the AR family, and when they use a 10.5" gun they carry over a lot of inapplicable habits.

I did not like the grip when I first started trying it out. But I gave it it's time and effort because I am never happy with my current level of proficiency, and my ego is not tied to any particular technique, but rather success, winning, and domination of my enemy. If a technique permits me to drive 5 shots into a threat's heart .10 seconds faster than another technique, that is .10 seconds faster I can get to my next threat, and I will take a .10 second advantage in a gunfight any day.

Anyway- dry-fire drills I recommend (and do when I can):
Presentation:
Training to get a rapid first-round hit from a low ready/alert position, and compressed/indoor alert.
Use 3 targets of varying size placed approx 1 foot apart. Preferably vary the height of the targets during the session as well as the order to avoid a training rut. Exact sizes aren't really all that important, but here is a general concept:
Approx 7 to 10 yards distance from the targets.
1 small target from 1 to 2 inches in diameter (I use the repair dots from Shoot-N-C targets on an index card).
1 medium target from 3 to 4 inches in diameter (I use a Copenhagen lid or a 3x5 index card folded in half).
1 large target from 6 to 8 inches in diameter (paper pie plates up to full size paper plates).
-If you do not have 7 to 10 yards, you can halve the distance, but you then need to halve the target diameter as well . I prefer to do my dry-fire outside since I have a safe area to do so that does not exist within my home.
Practice (with a deca-verified unloaded weapon with an identifiable dummy-round) driving the sight to the target (placed in safe direction just in case the Bullet Fairy sneaks a live one into your chamber), sweeping the safety, and releasing the shot when that sights tell you you would get a hit, as fast as you can. This IS NOT about offset at close range, but rather achieving hits on targets of varying sizes. Work on driving the sights to the line of sight- getting perfect sight alignment on the small target, speed of presentation to the large target, and balancing speed and precision on the medium target.
Work through each target in sequence (small, big, med) once you have gained the appreciation for sight requirements of each target.
The "Par" is consistent "hits" on the 3" target in .7 seconds or less at 10 yards. When you are here, begin working from a compressed/indoor alert.
*Definitions*- Alert/Low Ready- Gun is at an approx 45 degree angle, muzzle pointing to the ground. This permits full vision of the threat area and ground between you and the threat area. Practicing driving the sights up 2 degrees is not going to improve your driving skill. A fast 45 degree drive, however, will ingrain rapid proper cheek-weld which will make sight alignment/picture faster in actual employment.
Compressed/Indoor alert- The muzzle is pointing between your toes, buttstock indexed for rapid stock seating. This position is frequently used in indoor situations and/or when there are lots of things around you that you don't want to put bullets into.

Transitions (target to target that is, not to an alternate weapon or shoulder).
Use the same targets as from above (how's that for value, eh?), placed in a vertical line, with about 6 to 12 inches of vertical dispersion.
Place another series of the same targets 5 to 7 yards away.
Put yourself in a position so that you are about 7 to 10 yards away from both arrays of targets.
Begin with the gun on the large target, looking through the sights at the target.
On signal, slightly drop the optic/sights, pick up the small target in the line of sight and drive the aiming device to the line of sight and achieve a "hit" Repeat in the opposite direction. Then move to the large target in both directions, and then the medium target in each direction. Repeat sequence until you grow a hatred for whatever sight you own.
Remember, start out on the large target for each transition.
I can't remember what the par time is, but under 1 second for consistent hits to the Copenhagen lid is a good startin place.
*Note*- Kids, I am not recommending the use of tobacco in any way. It will kill you with more certainty than pretty much any handgun gunshot wound to the torso, and unlike 50 Cent's bullet-holes, chicks aren't interested in guys with mouth cancer.

Shoulder/Eye transitions:
Pretty much the same drill as the Presentation, but start out in your normal grip and on signal transition to the support side/reaction side/weak side/whatever the hell we are calling it this week side, and achieve a "hit" to the small dot, then large, then med.
Work on both full firing grip switch as well as the simple shoulder transition.
Set your own par time and work to cut it. The real goal is not to be able to befuddle a threat by haphazardly throwing the gun from shoulder to shoulder, but rather to gain proficiency, efficiency, and comfort with the support side and support-side transitions.

Reloads:
I hope you guys are seeing a trend here.
Start with the gun on the large target, empty magazine in place, bolt locked to the rear, with your speed reload ready and filled with dummy rounds.
On signal, try to press the trigger and perform your reload technique. I have my opinion on what works the best, but that is for another place.
After the reload, go to the small target. Next- Large, and last- medium.
Repeat until all of your dummy rounds are lost to wherever it is that dummy-rounds run off to and/or your cat/dog/kid eats them.
When you get back from the pediatrician/vetrinarian/shallow grave in the back-yard, record your average time to the medium target.
Par time will depend on your technique, retention necessity, position changes, and pouch design. Once again, I have my opinions on those, but you should be looking for under 4 seconds.

**Disclaimer**- Dry fire has an implication that the user is competant enough to ensure that there is no live ammunition anywhere within the same zip code of the dry-fire area and that even then the shooter performs the drills pointing the gun in a direction that should a round magically appear, it will be stopped before it hits anything that might die or sue you. If you have any doubt if you can conform to these stipulations- DO NOT perform any of these drills. Period. Guns are inherantly dangerous things, and even more so in the hands of the untrained and the stupid. One can be fixed, the other is generally fatal.

Good luck, work hard.
Remember-
Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals keep practicing until they are dead.

[oregonshooter]

FTS, thanks for the drills!

I did not like the grip when I first started trying it out. But I gave it it's time and effort because I am never happy with my current level of proficiency, and my ego is not tied to any particular technique, but rather success, winning, and domination of my enemy. If a technique permits me to drive 5 shots into a threat's heart .10 seconds faster than another technique, that is .10 seconds faster I can get to my next threat, and I will take a .10 second advantage in a gunfight any day.

I started with the IPSC stance and have recently shifted to the mag with the new AR build. I ran an AK with VDG before that was front heavy and the IPSC stance helped negate that weight.

If it is all about speed then .10sec savings will dictate your method. For me, I'm willing to give up that .10 for a position that works on on all my carbines and doesn't fatigue me as fast and is one I carry the gun in anyway. Wonder what the snap time differences are when you have to extend your hand down the guards as you raise the gun verses just shouldering it with hand on mag?

I don't see .10sec being the deciding factor in a firefight. If that .10 sec does make a difference maybe that first snap shot is where it counts? Who knows?

Shooting on the move instead of taking that cover next to me would more likely be the downfall than me getting the guy shooting at me .10 sec faster.

Just my beginner perspective...

[Heavy Metal]

I've messed with this new aged homo way of holding the rifle and find it to be not one bit better.

I can pull my weapon into my body just as well by grabbing the mag well or anywhere in between.

And common sense dictates that holding any object steady is easier done closer to your body than arm extended farther out. (plus, you end up looking like a match homo)

I laugh every time one of these ding dongs comes up with the newest and greatest goofy way to hold the carbean handguard. You can't sell training and stuff if you do things the way everyone else already is, I suppose.

I am going with Archimedes and saying the further out you are on the lever, the less effort it takes to control it.