5.7

[rsilvers]

What do you make of the TSX bullet they use for this application?

http://eliteammunition.com/productDisplay.php?id=EA198

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Saw the title and thought Dick Swan was tradmarking "5.7" too.

[Zhukov]

I would agree with Terminal_Effect. Let's assume for a minute that the claims are correct and that the penetration numbers jive. You then have an expanding 5.7mm projectile that, when expanded, is about the same diameter as a .45FMJ.

I don't know how much temporary cavitation would be an asset at 2500fps, although I think that 1900fps is probably too low to be of any use. The only other benefit might be in barrier penetration, but of course that's just a WAG.

[Zhurdan]

-and bottom line: what does the 5.7mm projectile offer over a 9mm or .40 or .45 JHP? I am not asking this question in spite, just saying because it would seem very unlikely that such a small light projectile could cause substantial tissue disruption via the secondary wounding mechanism, i.e. temporary cavitation.

If... big if... they can get decent results out of a round... 20 rounds on tap seems like a good offering from the pistol and 50 on tap from the p90, but again, unless they can show that... mine will sit in the safe until I want to go "play" with it. They are a fun couple of guns, but nothing I'd carry daily.

[ehryk]

According to a ballistics tech at Barnes, the 45 grain TSX is designed to open reliably in water at 1900 FPS. I would say it would be lower in flesh (correct me if I am wrong). I own both the FiveseveN and PS90 and would not use it as a defensive load in either one. The expansion is not enough from the pistol and the penetration is too much from the PDW. This round was developed as an off catalogue round for pig hunting and from what I understand, it worked well in that roll. If you want a defensive load, use this one: http://eliteammunition.com/productDisplay.php?id=EA197 . Also, there is a video of the 45 grain TSX from an AR57 here: http://www.youtube.com/user/EliteAmm...13/UrhfM_CJKZc

[DocGKR]

Water gives the MAXIMUM upset a bullet will likely ever exhibit; actual upset is typically less in tissue or properly fabricated and calibrated 10% gel.

[ehryk]

Water gives the MAXIMUM upset a bullet will likely ever exhibit; actual upset is typically less in tissue or properly fabricated and calibrated 10% gel.

Well, after reading what I wrote... lol... yeah, lower rate of expansion, not lower velocity. Never watch hockey and post ROFL

[ehryk]

Ehryk,

when you read something like this...

Criminals don’t stand a chance against the ProtecTOR Personal Defense round.
When fired from the FN Five seveN pistol, the ProtecTOR reaches a menacing 2,080 feet per second and able to impart more than 350 foot-pounds of energy on target. With the use of an FN P90 (2,400 fps) or PS90(2,600 fps), bullet speeds increase by several hundreds of feet per second, outperforming many similarly-sized 5.56x45mm weapons.
Astounding ballistic performance makes the ProtecTOR one of Elite’s most popular offerings. The cartridge design delivers the optimal level of penetration against a would-be attacker--while significantly reducing the risk of over-penetration when fired indoors. Gelatin tests conducted with a Five seveN handgun generated overwhelming hydrostatic shock effects and stunning elastic wound channels. The results revealed our ProtecTOR rivaled the stopping power of larger rifle calibers, while remaining safer than most pistol rounds in terms of material penetration and potential for ricochets.
When your family’s safety depends on you, depend on the ProtecTOR from Elite Ammunition.
Important Note: Elite ammunition does not recommend or endorse shooting into occupied structures or on areas prohibited by law. Elite Ammunition disclaims any liability as a result of the use of our ammunition


...turn on your BS-filter. I don't mean you're talking BS, just that above is...
BTW, hasn't the Horn. HPBT W/C T2 projectile been clocked at around 2,800 fps?
No offense, OK?

Yep, I agree on turning on the BS filter, hell, thats just life in general. My statement was in comparrison to the TSX round as a defensive one. There are adds everywhere each extoling their greatness since sliced bread yet we all have our BS filters on. Sorry if I assumed others were doing the same.

[Molon]

Surely you have seen the stickie by Dr. Roberts. . .

Penetration through 15% ballistics gellatin exceeds 14", from the pistol, and bullet expansion is greater than 50% of the original diameter. From the PS90, the bullet penetrates a full 21" of 15% ballistics gellatin while expanding more than 75% of the original diameter. Weight retention is more than 99.5%, even after passing through bone and connective tissue.

Just an observation Bro,

For those that might not be familiar with the issue or that might not have clicked on the link above your post, the way you have the beginning of your post worded, it makes it sound like the data that you quoted is from Dr. Roberts, which naturally it isn't.

[Zhukov]

It seems like the whole 5.7 thing brings to light some observations I've made keeping up with Dr. Roberts' research and related matter...

We now know pretty much about what makes a bullet perform well. Bullets are made from lead and/or copper, and there's only so many ways you can put those materials together. As such, given a bullet design that is meant to perform well, you are more limited by the caliber than anything else. To wit:

A small caliber has inherent difficulties getting the bullet fast enough to do what it needs to do, ie. expand and/or fragment. The only way to do that is by reducing the weight of the projectile. When you reduce the weight of the projectile, it doesn't retain enough momentum to penetrate deeply enough. Look at the 5.56/.223 - the one way to make it perform well is to jump to the very edge of the weight envelope for that caliber, which is over 70gr.

The 5.7 cannot ever attain the same performance as even the .223 (which is deemed sub-optimal by some) due to the limitations of the case. That dictates either very light bullets to get the speed up so that the bullet will expand/fragment (but then doesn't retain enough momentum to penetrate deeply enough), or heavier bullets (too guarantee sufficient penetration) which won't expand/fragment because they're going too slow. This is not an issue particular to the 5.7, but inherent to calibers with small cases. You simply can't redefine the laws of physics.