Alternative to LRW

[ToddG]

Rather than bog down the AAR of Ken Hackathorn's excellent pistol class this past weekend, let's start a new thread to discuss the malf clearance that was discussed in the thread.

First, here is a video of the technique courtesy of our own C4IGrant:
YouTube link (SFW)

I am not the originator of this technique and while none of the other students in the class had seen it, Ken had. The technique was shown to me by a friend who teaches contractors for one of the major companies, and according to him it is SOP for their training.

A traditional Lock, Rip, Work response to an extraction failure is time consuming and requires the shooter to follow a specific series of actions, possibly under extreme stress.

This technique, which doesn't have a name that I'm aware of (I just call it a "wrist slap") is faster and easier. It's also substantially easier to do one-handed. The only real trick is that you must remember to keep the mag catch depressed as you slap your wrist against your palm. The magazine doesn't come out otherwise.

Locking the slide back after the mag ejects is a bonus, in my book. If you just rack the slide, insert a mag, and rack again it will still work. Locking the slide back on purpose eliminates the extra time/movement/sequence of a second slide rack, however.

Another benefit comes with guns that may lack cutouts or other ergonomic allowances for easily stripping a stuck magazine from the pistol.

I've used this technique after an actual unexpected FTE on a HK P30, and in set-up double feeds on a Glock, Beretta, and S&W M&P. It's worked fine in every case.

As far as learning the technique goes, the most honest assessment I can offer is that when I did it in class last weekend, it happened without any thought or planning. While I'd never seriously practiced it, the technique is so simple that it's easy to perform with little thought.

[John_Wayne777]

I wonder how it would work with Glock mags that are reluctant to eject...

[Palmguy]

I wonder how it would work with Glock mags that are reluctant to eject...

This is new to me, but I've been running through this here at home with both of my 19s and 3 snap caps (1 in the chamber and 2 in the mag) and it has been working well. Obviously a low stress environment without any outside distractions so take that for what it's worth. I've also tried it using the more conventional rip-the-mag-out technique and can see how that would be considerably more difficult to accomplish under stress and/or with sweaty/bloody hands.

[m4fun]

Wow - this does work. I am like Palmguy and doing this under laboratory conditions. Worth practicing for muscle memory.

[WhoUtink]

Ok , after you slap your wrist , you are going to rack the slide? If you depress the mag release and rack the slide what happens? For me the Stuck bullet falls out as well as the mag, so why not do it this way? I saw it in a video a year or two ago and it works for me not sure about every gun though. Try it, and if you have already let me know if it doesn't work with particular guns.

[Failure2Stop]

I have a 12 man class next week, will put them through this and see how it goes.
I am interested in the ability to do one-handed manipulations with this, as one-handed left hand locking the slide to the rear is more chance than skill.

I have a theory that the original LRW was tightly tied to 1911 mags and 8 rd 1911 mags, which are much more trouble than quality modern mags. Just a thought.

[rob_s]

Any kind of instinct on how much force is required? Is there a point at which you can wind up "slapping" to no effect?

Off the bat the one advantage I see immediately to LRW is that they are all motions that the shooter is (or should be) already familiar with. In terms of a teaching environment by the time you get to malfunction clearances you've already covered loading, chambering, locking the slide to the rear, running the slide, ejecting the magazine, etc. So, while stringing them together may present an issue in terms of choreography, they are all familiar motions. A "training issue", I'm sure, but in my experience sticking with a few basic manipulations and making them work for all situations is better.

Crossover to the carbine would be another point of interest. While the LRW motions are different on the carbine the acts are the same. Again that consistency and use of movements the shooter is already familiar with.

As this thread progresses it would be interesting if those that try it can report on what make/model of pistol they try it with, what make/model of magazines, and what ammo or snap caps they are using.

[rob_s]

I just tried it with the following:
Springfield Milspec with TB 1* Enhanced package
McCormick 8-round power magazine
Speer Gold Dot 230 grain

I tried it with 8 rounds in the magazine, 6 rounds, and 4 rounds (this was because each time I did it I lost two rounds on the floor. Each time the magazine fell free, but it typically took me two or three slaps to get it to work. Might just be a factor of needing more practice with it, but it also put quite a strain on the wrist, perhaps due to it being a heavy pistol.

I also found that when I did it the first time I "set it up" meaning I eased the slide down. It was significantly easier than the other times I tried it where I pulled the slide fully to the rear before releasing it.

I'll play with it some more later.

[C4IGrant]

I have messed with the technique some and it seems to work well. If you are a betting man, after you drop the mag, you could insert a new mag and then rack the slide. If the casing is NOT stock in the chamber, it should eject the casing and insert a new round.

If it does, not, you have just created your problem all over again. I would argue that if your extractor cannot pull the case out, you are screwed anyway.



C4

[ToddG]

Any kind of instinct on how much force is required? Is there a point at which you can wind up "slapping" to no effect?

Of course. If you don't do it hard enough to eject the mag, the mag won't eject.

Off the bat the one advantage I see immediately to LRW is that they are all motions that the shooter is (or should be) already familiar with.

This assumes that reps loading a gun will somehow impact your ability to rack a slide under stress when faced with a stoppage, etc. I think that's untrue. People don't struggle to rack the slide, they struggle to perform the right actions in the right sequence.

It's the same logic which tells people to rack the slide during a reload because it has "commonality of training" with doing a TRB during a malfunction. Again, it's BS. When your brain says "reload" your body follows certain steps. When it says "malfunction!" your body follows different steps. Whether some of the individual actions are similar isn't really a factor.

It's like saying a rock band drummer will make a great driver because he's used to using his feet on the bass drum pedals.

So, while stringing them together may present an issue in terms of choreography, they are all familiar motions.

I'd argue that the choreography is the hard part. But if there is one physical skill that a lot of shooters struggle with, especially women and others with little upper body strength, is locking the slide to the back.

I tried it with 8 rounds in the magazine, 6 rounds, and 4 rounds (this was because each time I did it I lost two rounds on the floor.

I see that as immaterial. The rounds in the gun are gone whether they are in the mag on ground or loose on the ground. That's why I carry a spare mag. If I need to rely on the ejected magazine, things have gone from worse to worser.

I also found that when I did it the first time I "set it up" meaning I eased the slide down. It was significantly easier than the other times I tried it where I pulled the slide fully to the rear before releasing it.

I'd suggest doing a legit TRB attempt as the beginning of each drill.