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Thread: DDM4 Accuracy?

  1. #1
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    DDM4 Accuracy?

    I was wondering what kind of accuracy the owners of DDM4's were getting out of their rifles (16 inch M4 profile barrels). I read gotm4's thread and it said that most ARs achieve between 1-4 MOA. It got me curious as to what kind of accuracy I should be getting out of my gun. I am generally new to shooting (started 11/2008), but I have put in around 1500-2000 rounds between my DDM4 and MP15 in that time period. Family time and finances prevent me from devoting more time and money into this sport.

    I would say that with the stock trigger and with a Bushnell 3200 3-10x scope using Prvi 69 gr. OTMs I'm getting about 2-3 inch groups (10 shot) depending on the day. I'm not sandbagged and the rifle is shot from benchrest on a Grippod. My usual breathing pattern is two deep breaths and then the shot is broken at the halfway breathout (holding breath) point of the third breath.

    So, just wondering what the other DDM4 or other M4-gery owners are getting out of their rifles. Should I be expecting better? I know in another thread, Grant had said that M4 profile barrels were not the best for barrel harmonics. What ammo is more accurate with this gun? Any info and tips would be greatly appreciated as I plan on taking this weapon whitetail hunting this season using Hornady .223 TAP 75 gr. OTMs.
    Last edited by uwe1; 10-30-09 at 22:54. Reason: Clarifications

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    I have put about 60 rds through mine. I haven't spent much time going for maximum accuracy, but while zeroing, it kept them all touching(if I did my part), easily dime sized groups with T1 at 25 yards, with Green Tip. I think it has a lot of accuracy potential, without a doubt more than acceptable for a fighting gun!

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    Is 4 MOA acceptable accuracy for a fighting gun? I understand that it's probably not reasonable to expect a 5.56 chambered, M4 barreled rifle to behave like a SPR or target gun, but I suppose I'm just wanting to know that when someone talks about the accuracy of their fighting gun to be "great", what quantifiable number would that be? I am pondering that you would want at least 2-3 MOA accuracy out of a fighting gun...I'm not military, but it seems to me that in Afghanistan, where engagements are taking place 200-300+ yards away that 4 MOA would definitely not be good enough? Please correct me if I'm wrong in this, as this is just sort of a nerdy question I'm having.
    Last edited by uwe1; 11-02-09 at 19:02.

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    Out past 200, a 4moa rifle is really opening up. Once you get around 300, it can't really be trusted to hit a person every time.

    I guess it really depends on what distance you anticipate the fighting to be at. If it is all going to be inside 300, you should be alright. If you anticipate longer ranges, you'll need a different rifle. Personally, I would like it to be closer to 2-2.5.
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    I can only comment on the DD 16" NON-CHF barrel alone, as I shot it from a free float and not a complete DD rifle. However for just the purposes of the barrel....

    When I first built my SPR, I was waiting on the 18" Noveske barrel. While I was waiting, I had dropped in the NON-Hammer forged, DD 16", 4150, chrome lined, 1:7 barrel. Out of a free float, I was getting just under 2MOA with a fixed 10X using Federal TRU 55gr Hi Shok SP ammo. I never did run a heavier grain match type of ammo out of it, but I am sure I coulda easily cut the number down to 1.5MOA or better.

    On a side note when I swapped the same rifle to the 18" Noveske SPR 1:7 barrel the numbers dropped to sub MOA with the Federal 55gr TRU ammo and Sub .75MOA with 75grain Hornady Tap and 75 grain Black Hills, with the smallest of all the groups fired (4 round group) being under .5 MOA.

    So IMO, all in all as far as the DD barrel goes, it performed very well.

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    The only way to find out is to buy different loads, and shoot it yourself.

    The truth is that no matter what others reply, you won't be satisfied unless you do it yourself with your own rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    I can only comment on the DD 16" NON-CHF barrel alone, as I shot it from a free float and not a complete DD rifle. However for just the purposes of the barrel....

    When I first built my SPR, I was waiting on the 18" Noveske barrel. While I was waiting, I had dropped in the NON-Hammer forged, DD 16", 4150, chrome lined, 1:7 barrel. Out of a free float, I was getting just under 2MOA with a fixed 10X using Federal TRU 55gr Hi Shok SP ammo. I never did run a heavier grain match type of ammo out of it, but I am sure I coulda easily cut the number down to 1.5MOA or better.

    On a side note when I swapped the same rifle to the 18" Noveske SPR 1:7 barrel the numbers dropped to sub MOA with the Federal 55gr TRU ammo and Sub .75MOA with 75grain Hornady Tap and 75 grain Black Hills, with the smallest of all the groups fired (4 round group) being under .5 MOA.

    So IMO, all in all as far as the DD barrel goes, it performed very well.
    My DDM4 is with the 16" non-CHF barrel as well. The first day I was out there to check for accuracy, I was getting 3-4 shots into 1.25 inch groups with the 69 gr. Prvi OTMs. I was feeling pretty good about it since it was a stock trigger. Then I remembered Molon's posting from TOS about 10 shot groups and so the next time I went out, I did a couple of those resulting in the main group landing into a 1.5 inch group with a few stray fliers making the group 2.5-3 inches. Unfortunately, I shot these after shooting a bunch of 12 gauge high velocity rounds so I don't think my body/shoulder was feeling it's greatest.

    My next trip I plan on using my limited supply of .223 75 gr. TAP to do the final sight in and find out the accuracy of the gun with this load. I would think that the Hornady rounds would be of higher quality and accuracy than the Prvi loads.

    I am pretty happy with the accuracy of this gun. I think much of it probably has to do with my relatively new shooting skills. The only reason I mentioned 4 MOA was because gotm4 had said that most ARs will range between 1-4 MOA and I thought that 4 MOA would be unacceptable for most people.

    By the way, Surf, what kind of lower and trigger parts did you have in your lower? I'm making a note to self about the 18" Noveske SPR barrel if I were ever to build a SPR.
    Last edited by uwe1; 11-02-09 at 22:28.

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    I had trouble getting match ammo for a while, and shot Hornandy 55grain v-max varmint bullets. I shot 1 to 1.5 inch groups with several rifles.

    Ammo is a huge factor when you start talking sub-moa. Try a box of those V-Max and you might be surprised. I was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uwe1 View Post
    My DDM4 is with the 16" non-CHF barrel as well. The first day I was out there to check for accuracy, I was getting 3-4 shots into 1.25 inch groups with the 69 gr. Prvi OTMs. I was feeling pretty good about it since it was a stock trigger. Then I remembered Molon's posting from TOS about 10 shot groups and so the next time I went out, I did a couple of those resulting in the main group landing into a 1.5 inch group with a few stray fliers making the group 2.5-3 inches. Unfortunately, I shot these after shooting a bunch of 12 gauge high velocity rounds so I don't think my body/shoulder was feeling it's greatest.

    My next trip I plan on using my limited supply of .223 75 gr. TAP to do the final sight in and find out the accuracy of the gun with this load. I would think that the Hornady rounds would be of higher quality and accuracy than the Prvi loads.

    I am pretty happy with the accuracy of this gun. I think much of it probably has to do with my relatively new shooting skills. The only reason I mentioned 4 MOA was because gotm4 had said that most ARs will range between 1-4 MOA and I thought that 4 MOA would be unacceptable for most people.

    By the way, Surf, what kind of lower and trigger parts did you have in your lower? I'm making a note to self about the 18" Noveske SPR barrel if I were ever to build a SPR.
    I also use what I consider to be an overall average of several test groups. So yes, even though I may shoot some impressive tight 4-5 hole groups, with a "flier", I still need to take into account the "flier", and measure the correct spread. I note that with the Federal 55gr TRU ammo I seem to get consistent "fliers", no matter what I shoot it out of, which hurt my overall summary for groupings. I definitely find less of an issue out of match type ammo and can therefore document smaller consistent groups. Which is why I will state that the smallest group may have been sub .5 MOA, but that is only 1 sampling in perhaps a cumulative .75MOA claim for the Noveske barrel. Hope I am making sense.

    Therefore I will say that with good ammo I am quite sure the DD barrel / rifle can easily perform sub 2 MOA with good ammo. 1.5 MOA would not surprise me at all with a good match ammo.

    As for my SPR that I am talking about, the lower I run a Noveske "E" marked N4 with an Armalite LPK, however the trigger I swapped out to a Rock River 2 stage that I worked over myself. Very nice break.

    I can't say enough about the Noveske 18" SPR barrel. My custom build and my partners complete FDE-Recce both shoot 1 MOA or better on the 55gr TRU and .75 MOA or better on the 75gr TAP and Black Hills. FWIW my barrel was just the barrel and not the matched barrel / bolt combo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RancidSumo View Post
    Out past 200, a 4moa rifle is really opening up. Once you get around 300, it can't really be trusted to hit a person every time.

    I guess it really depends on what distance you anticipate the fighting to be at. If it is all going to be inside 300, you should be alright. If you anticipate longer ranges, you'll need a different rifle. Personally, I would like it to be closer to 2-2.5.
    I'm not trying to argue but I do want to point out a common misbelief when it comes to group size.

    when someone says their gun shoots 2 inch or 3 inch or whatever groups size, that means a circle that all shots fall into with the two farthest apart shots indicating the entire group size. in other words, this is the group diameter.

    now what some people get fooled into thinking is that this is the distance that the farthest shot will be from the center of the aiming point or hopefully, the center of the group. that would mean the group/circle has a radius of 4", not the diameter and that's incorrect. .

    that being the case a 4" group, if properly zeroed at the distance it is being shot at, the worst shot would impact only 2" from your aiming point.

    so, assuming inches @ 100 yards = app. MOA, then even with 4MOA at 300 yards, your group size/diameter would be approximately 12" and the radius would be half that. theoretically you shouldn't be missing what you're aiming at by any more than 6 inches.

    that's not a headshot but I certainly wouldn't want to stand downrange and let someone plink away at me that could keep all his shots in a 12" circle at 300 yards...
    Last edited by ra2bach; 11-03-09 at 12:06.
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