Switching Hands (Hackathorn class-inspired)

[spankaveli]

If the following is out of line, please disregard. I'm not trying to be judgmental and I might be using the appropriate terminology but it was just something I noticed and was curious about..

I noticed the guy in the shoothouse video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3R5S0MaAeI) went from strong hand primary two hand grip to weak hand primary two hand grip when he was done with the BGs on the right and went to the left, then switched back after that.

When should this be done, if ever? I kinda-sorta understand the reasoning from a defensive/tactical perspective but, at the same time, it seems like you'd want 100% control of the gun at all times and relinquishing that for even a second or two might be detrimental and, frankly, not worth it in what little corner carving advantage you'd have.

[JSGlock34]

I noticed the guy in the shoothouse video went from strong hand primary two hand grip to weak hand primary two hand grip when he was done with the BGs on the right and went to the left, then switched back after that.

When should this be done, if ever? I kinda-sorta understand the reasoning from a defensive/tactical perspective but, at the same time, it seems like you'd want 100% control of the gun at all times and relinquishing that for even a second or two might be detrimental and, frankly, not worth it in what little corner carving advantage you'd have.

Switching hands with either a rifle or pistol is generally done to maximize cover. I've seen this demonstrated more often with a rifle (most impressively by the MagPul Dynamics instructors, who place much emphasis on it and advocate the single point sling largely because of its benefits in support side shooting). I've rarely seen this advocated for a handgun though, and I would also like to hear more about this.

My concern about switching hands - even with a rifle - is about my ability to execute this task under stress. Most training I've attended emphasized that fine motor skills degrade under stress (this is one of the reasons I've heard by advocates of the hand over slide method vice manipulating a slide release lever during a reload). Switching your pistol between hands in a combat situation seems like a difficult task to execute safely. I've seen competitors fumble their pistols or even ND (rare, but I've seen it) during IDPA stages when they had to switch from strong hand to weak hand. Though I'm sure we all like to think that ice will run in our veins in an actual gunfight, I suspect shaking hands might not be uncommon.

This is an Advanced course with skilled students and this is certainly an advanced technique. Reading the AARs and the discussion of 'Hackathorn's Law' leads me to believe that if you are going to plan on switching hands in an actual gunfight, your training regimen really needs to reflect that. I always practice some support hand manipulations and shooting during my pistol sessions, but I think like many I include these as 'survival manipulations' in case I have to use my support side in a gunfight due to a wound, not because I've chosen deliberately to switch to my support side to gain a tactical advantage when using cover.

I'd like to hear from the students - is this a technique that you are adopting and how is it changing your training regimen? What percentage of support side pistol shooting are you incorporating into your range sessions?

This sounds like an outstanding - and thought provoking - class.

[ToddG]

I'd like to hear from the students - is this a technique that you are adopting and how is it changing your training regimen?

I am not. It may very well be a viable approach for many people, but after a little testing I determined that for me it is not an advantage.

• With the help of some other shooters, I was able to verify that my use of cover around a right-side barricade using my normal grip (right hand as strong hand) exposed very little more of myself than when switching grips. If I closed my right (dominant) eye I would have been showing exactly the same amount of myself as when I was using the reverse grip (with my dominant eye shut).
• On a shot timer, I was able to demonstrate that shooting with a reversed grip cut my speed in half (added 0.20+ per shot). (in fairness, I'd expect that to get better with practice)
• In terms of Hackathorn's Law, it is not something I see myself developing the confidence necessary to choose that method over keeping my normal shooting grip under stress.

[JSGlock34]

Thanks Todd. Having taken your recent Practice Session on Cover, I was particularly interested to hear your response.

[Adam]

The hand swtching is done to maxmize cover. You stick out an inch or two more if you don't, but your accuracy and speed degrade. Many people are against it, maybe a dedicated thread is in order instead of derailing the one.

[John_Wayne777]

If the following is out of line, please disregard. I'm not trying to be judgmental and I might be using the appropriate terminology but it was just something I noticed and was curious about..

If you'll notice, at the beginning of the video Ken actually says "This would be a good place to switch hands". He taught switching hands to maximize the use of cover/concealment. Ken related to us that he has encountered information that a large chunk of the GSW's experienced by servicemen engaged in urban combat in Iraq were the result of exposing too much of themselves around corners. By swapping to the other shoulder (long gun) or hand (handgun) you can minimize the amount of your anatomy that you present to the bad guy. Under stress people shoot at what they can see...and the less they can see the better.

Switching shoulders is something that Larry Vickers has taught in carbine classes I've done with him.

When should this be done, if ever?

Ken taught that one should switch hands whenever it would give you the ability to hide more of yourself behind the corner.

I kinda-sorta understand the reasoning from a defensive/tactical perspective but, at the same time, it seems like you'd want 100% control of the gun at all times and relinquishing that for even a second or two might be detrimental and, frankly, not worth it in what little corner carving advantage you'd have.

While it's conceivable that someone could charge you the instant you are switching hands, it's probably not very likely. As you can see in the video the switch didn't take very long at all.

In my view while the technique may hide more of yourself than use of the strong hand, I found that I was not able to use my weapon as efficiently, meaning that while more of me was hidden, what was visible of me was visible longer because it took me more time to get the hits than with my strong hand. I'm not a gunfighter by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems reasonable to me to believe that if you lean around a corner and start shooting fire will be returned by anybody in the zip code capable of returning it...and every moment spent there will increase the odds of being hit.

Now to be clear: That's just my thought on the matter. Is Ken's approach right or are my concerns more pressing? Well, Tier 1 military units, SWAT units, and lots of other people who shoot bad people for a living pay good money to have Ken teach them CQB. I'm some dumbass on the internet. Take from that what you will.

My concern about switching hands - even with a rifle - is about my ability to execute this task under stress. Most training I've attended emphasized that fine motor skills degrade under stress (this is one of the reasons I've heard by advocates of the hand over slide method vice manipulating a slide release lever during a reload). Switching your pistol between hands in a combat situation seems like a difficult task to execute safely. I've seen competitors fumble their pistols or even ND (rare, but I've seen it) during IDPA stages when they had to switch from strong hand to weak hand. Though I'm sure we all like to think that ice will run in our veins in an actual gunfight, I suspect shaking hands might not be uncommon.

That's a legitimate concern, and it's one of the reasons why Ken told us over and over and over and over again to practice weak-handed techniques, because if we weren't certain of our ability to pull it off we would never attempt it when the targets are shooting back. Having heard from a number of combat experienced individuals I think he's 100% right on that. I've heard other instructors with a wealth of combat experience completely forgo teaching any weak hand stuff because, and I quote, "In combat your strong arm will have to be damn near cut off before you'll attempt to use the weak arm."

I think I can say without fear of contradiction that is a result of Hackathorn's Law. It's not trained on much, ergo it doesn't show up when on the 2 way range.

This is an Advanced course with skilled students and this is certainly an advanced technique. Reading the AARs and the discussion of 'Hackathorn's Law' leads me to believe that if you are going to plan on switching hands in an actual gunfight, your training regimen really needs to reflect that.

100% correct, sir.

I'd like to hear from the students - is this a technique that you are adopting and how is it changing your training regimen? What percentage of support side pistol shooting are you incorporating into your range sessions?

Again, keep in mind that I'm not a gunfighter. But:

I fully intend to practice my weak-hand shooting more. I've been trying to practice it more for other reasons (primarily to help master trigger manipulation and sight management) but this is yet another reason to add to my "Why I practice with my left hand" list. Keep in mind that I'm also recovering from a fairly nasty bout of tendinitis that left me almost unable to draw a gun with my right arm. That was a wakeup call to me. Although my arm is feeling much better after a few weeks of doc prescribed rest, I was realistically facing the possibility of having to do everything weak hand only for a significant chunk of time if I had to have surgery.

I have left handed carry gear on order and on the few times that I've been to the range in the last few weeks I've been practicing weak handed stuff. I've been more interested in weak hand stuff ever since Larry and Ken put me through a shoothouse in the low light course and strongly encouraged us to use the carbine off the weak shoulder for the same reasons outlined here so I've been giving weak handed stuff a new look for a while now.

My 2 cents...no refunds.

[NCPatrolAR]

My 2 cents:

First; I dont have a strong or weak hand. I have a dominant and non-dominant hand. I know its a semantics issue, but it helps some people get over the fear to use their non-dominant hand for something other than "The Stranger". When some people think of their "weak hand" they automaticly screw themselves mentally and assume they will have to get poorer hits.

Second; I train to use both hands and have switched hands while on the job. The times that I've found it productive to switch hands is when doing a slow clear of a structure and I run into a small area with tight corners (checking out a closet immediately comes to mind). In these cases, should an encounter occur, the suspect will first my eye, body, and muzzle at the same time. Keeping the gun in my dominant hand forces me to expose way more of my body before having my muzzle in a position to make a shot if needed.

The key to using it is to practice. I'm not a fan of switching hands or shoulders unless I absolutely have to, but I see a legitimate use in it.

[Jay Cunningham]

My $.02...

I have come to understand, appreciate, and embrace switching shoulders with long guns. I do not think there is nearly as much utility in switching grips on the pistol. However, one area where I can see the utility of it is if you choose to stage your BUG on your support side. If you have both hands free you can then shoot the BUG using the two-handed support grip.

Like I said, my opinion as to what works for me.

[C4IGrant]

The technique that Ken teaches is a good one, but you have to be confident in your skills (meaning shooting offhand). If you are slow or fumble around with it, I would say that is better to keep the weapon in your strong hand.

I intend to practice it and become more comfortable with the technique as it is just another tool in the toolbox.


C4

[Jim D]

My 2 cents:

First; I dont have a strong or weak hand. I have a dominant and non-dominant hand. I know its a semantics issue, but it helps some people get over the fear to use their non-dominant hand for something other than "The Stranger". When some people think of their "weak hand" they automaticly screw themselves mentally and assume they will have to get poorer hits.

Second; I train to use both hands and have switched hands while on the job. The times that I've found it productive to switch hands is when doing a slow clear of a structure and I run into a small area with tight corners (checking out a closet immediately comes to mind). In these cases, should an encounter occur, the suspect will first my eye, body, and muzzle at the same time. Keeping the gun in my dominant hand forces me to expose way more of my body before having my muzzle in a position to make a shot if needed.

The key to using it is to practice. I'm not a fan of switching hands or shoulders unless I absolutely have to, but I see a legitimate use in it.

In that same light, a guy I train some combatives with calls them your "strong hand" and "other strong hand". I believe the terminology he used was "neurolinguistic programming", the idea that how you think about things and the words you use impact how your brain approaches things.

Conseqently, he doest teach anything "defensive"...as in his mind "defense is a victims word."