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Thread: Improving my safety-ON, performance??

  1. #31
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    Another note to the point of utilizing the safety (in addition to my earlier reply)..... I know of three officers shot in our county during AD's out of unusual (Murphys Law) type situations, one of them left behind a wife and kids. All three of those guns had safeties as part of their design feature, obviously not in use.
    "God made Cops, so Firemen could have Heroes."
    "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

    Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

  2. #32
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    PappaBear,

    Correct/Fast Manipultaion will come with training/repetition. The dry fire and live fire drills mentioned here are a great start. Just remember to practice off handed also. While I like an ambi safety, I've trained myself so that it is not neccessary. My work M4 had a ambi safety at one time but my .mil didnt. I could see I was setting myself up for failure with that so I went back to standard single side on my work m4 . I then did repetition after repetion to get used to taking the safety off with my left index finger knuckle (Im a right hand shooter). As for the 'This is my safety " crowd. For us, when the weapon is off target, its on safe. Period! Triggers are apt to catch on things like branches, gear, etc. in addition to normal human negligence.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I don't think you'll be remotely surprised that the whole rest of the training world, outside your little unknown local guy that you train with, would disagree with you.

    Sights off target, safety on. There is no reason NOT to do it that way. Hell, there is no reason NOT to do it that way even with the AK.
    1. Maybe I should go to Tacticalyellow****tard and find out what all the hip instructors/match goofballs are doing! and...

    2. I've never listed any of my instructors, so you don't know who the **** I train with. Maybe I can get a job at a gun store and blow Pat Rogers so I can be a internut gun expert like you!
    Last edited by markm; 11-02-09 at 22:29.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    I disagree. When you are doing anything but shooting your safety should be on. The safety being engaged and disengaged should be muscle memory not a cognitive thought. And further more I would not want you behind me on a gun call with your safety off in the stack no way.
    Pat
    I can appreciate your thoughts on the matter. But I've stacked up with plenty of guys where as soon as we entered the house, we were all hot weapons/safety off. Muzzle discipline and trigger finger all the way.
    Last edited by markm; 11-02-09 at 22:19.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navigating Collapse View Post
    Fingers aren't the only things causing NDs there, homie.
    Good point, for sure!

    Here's an example given to us:

    During a drill, a SWAT guy was deploying an MP5 as his primary. Going into the scenario, he thought he had his sub gun on Full Auto, but it was on SEMI. So when he fired his first shot and the gun stopped. He thought he had a malfed primary. He drops the primary to hang and transitions to his pistol. As the Mp5 hangs, the trigger is hit by some of his gear and the weapon fires. A round goes into another officers leg.

    If you're going to let your long gun leave your hands you surely want the safety on.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    I can appreciate your thoughts on the matter. But I've stacked up with plenty of guys where as soon as we entered the house, we were all hot weapons/safety off. Muzzle discipline and trigger finger all the way.
    I understand that muzzle discipline and trigger finger discipline are a must but stuff still happens. Jeff Hall is a NRA law enforcement instructor. He is also a Vietnam vet and a former Alaska State Trooper. He has won gun fights both as a Trooper and as a Soldier. Anyway he did a study while teaching some of the best of the best. (top military and LEO teams) during the training he noted how often the shooters put their finger on the trigger when they should not have. He found that 95% of the students did at some point in the training. On the last student he stopped them and asked they why they touched the trigger. The student was not even aware that he had. His answer was I guess to make sure it was still there. So even the best people screw up. The safety adds one more hurdle to pass to prevent disaster and it costs you nothing. Once you get used to using the safety as an unconscious thought it’s very fast. When my muzzle goes down my safety goes on. I even do this when I am competing and time really matters. There if it’s ingrained in you lose no time. I can understand why it would be more difficult with other rifle designs like the AK. But with the AR it’s very easy to manipulate the safety. That’s my opinion and I don't mean to insult you in any way.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
    Firearms Instructor
    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    I can appreciate your thoughts on the matter. But I've stacked up with plenty of guys where as soon as we entered the house, we were all hot weapons/safety off. Muzzle discipline and trigger finger all the way.
    No offense my friend, but I am somewhat of an old dog also. 20 years in LE and 13 of those years on a 50 man, full time team, with a major metro PD. I am also one of 2 lead Firearms instructors. Just saying this because when I first saw this being done by a certain "high speed" group of SF guys, I thought it was utter BS. Hell I shot better than 99% of them, what could they teach me. Well being open minded and leaving my ego on the porch, so to speak, I became open to the concept. Damn if it doesn't have merit. Scenarios and shot timers can easily verify that a well trained individual can manipulate the safety with no loss in time from when they can properly identify a shootable threat until the gun comes on target and the round goes off. Give it an honest try.

    For this reason alone, it makes no sense not to incorporate the use of an added safety. Kinda like manipulating the slide safety on a 1911. Pretty simple when trained. It takes not more time or effort when trained properly. Unless of course you want to dumb down your fellas and expect less out of them. We also need to consider that many guys may have to go hands on, in an instant. They may let their weapon drop and hang with the safety off. This may cause it to hang up on gear, especially if a hands on confrontation ensues. There is no good logic not to use the added safety when trained and incorporated.

    And no, I don't have my nose up Pat's ass, or anyone else that posts here.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    1. Maybe I should go to Tacticalyellow****tard and find out what all the hip instructors/match goofballs are doing! and...

    2. I've never listed any of my instructors, so you don't know who the **** I train with. Maybe I can get a job at a gun store and blow Pat Rogers so I can be a internut gun expert like you!
    S-E-N-S-A-T-I-V-E

    What do you gain by leaving the safety off on an AR?

    Who do you train with that teaches/recommends safety off? What reasons do they give?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    I can appreciate your thoughts on the matter. But I've stacked up with plenty of guys where as soon as we entered the house, we were all hot weapons/safety off. Muzzle discipline and trigger finger all the way.
    I dont understand why doubling or tripling up on safety precautions is such a bad thing...

    Muzzle discipline and trigger finger awareness are not 100, neither is a safety.

    Three is better than two as far as im concerned but im just a regular civi puke shooter.
    Last edited by Magsz; 11-03-09 at 10:03.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    1. Maybe I should go to Tacticalyellow****tard and find out what all the hip instructors/match goofballs are doing! and...

    2. I've never listed any of my instructors, so you don't know who the **** I train with. Maybe I can get a job at a gun store and blow Pat Rogers so I can be a internut gun expert like you!
    That is pretty much the quality of response I've come to expect from you. No real answer, just hysteria and personal attacks.

    Which is why I wasn't surprised to see you saying you think it's a great idea to leave the safety off.

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