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Thread: Improving my safety-ON, performance??

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunderway View Post
    This is what I have always been taught and practiced. Whether 1911, shotgun, or carbine; once I have to shoot at someone, that gun is HOT and my finger is my safety until it is holstered or a low ready and all threats are gone.

    I'm open to the idea of using it more, but just haven't been trained to do so at this time.
    What mark suggested and what you describe are not the same thing.

    What he's saying is that if he's going through a door with a group of guys (what on earth he's doing in that situation to begin with is beyond me) he thinks they should all have safeties off the entire time.

    What you're saying is that if you have already engaged a threat until you verify that there is no more threat and then re-engage the safety before lowering to low ready, which is pretty much the same thing that everyone else in the thread (and 99% of the training world) is saying too.

    Nobody here is saying "engage target one until they stop, engage safety and move to known target two, disengage safety, and engage until they stop, engage safety and move to known target three, disengage safety, and engage until they stop" etc.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Scenarios and shot timers can easily verify that a well trained individual can manipulate the safety with no loss in time from when they can properly identify a shootable threat until the gun comes on target and the round goes off. Give it an honest try.

    For this reason alone, it makes no sense not to incorporate the use of an added safety. Kinda like manipulating the slide safety on a 1911. Pretty simple when trained. It takes not more time or effort when trained properly. Unless of course you want to dumb down your fellas and expect less out of them. We also need to consider that many guys may have to go hands on, in an instant. They may let their weapon drop and hang with the safety off. This may cause it to hang up on gear, especially if a hands on confrontation ensues. There is no good logic not to use the added safety when trained and incorporated.
    This has been EXACTLY my experience in training and competition. Flicking the safety on and off as you come up or down has ZERO impact on the time it takes between the first O and the A of OODA.

    We get at least one new shooter (meaning someone that may have a TON of time shooting from the bench at the public range and can often shoot the wings off a gnat) a month at drills that starts off not wanting to manipulate the safety as they go up and down with the muzzle. Usually it's not a conscious decision it's just something they are forgetting to do with all of the other information they are trying to absorb. Within a 3 hour block of basic instruction and <200 rounds I have never failed to make a convert out of them by the end of the night.

    Same thing goes for the 1911 for that matter, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magsz View Post
    Seriously, that whole "hoot" comment from BHD always drove me nuts. "This here's my safety".
    Uhh...

    Just for the record, I asked Paul Howe about that comment and he explained the 'whole' story. It had nothing to do with being 'too elite for rules'. The chow hall backed up to a exterior perimeter and Delta was worried that there would be an IED attack on the chow hall which would catch the vast majority of the soldiers unarmed and unprepared.

    Delta's warnings (and advice that personnel in the mess hall should still be armed) were never heeded, so Delta took it upon themselves to stay armed in the event there was an attack. While armed, their rifles were empty chamber, hammer up, mag inserted. Since the rifles were hammer up, you couldn't engage the safety. The 'this is my safety' comment is out of context in both the book, and movie. It was part of a bigger conversation and preparedness struggle between the Rangers and Delta.
    Kelly H
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyTTE View Post
    Uhh...

    Just for the record, I asked Paul Howe about that comment and he explained the 'whole' story. It had nothing to do with being 'too elite for rules'. The chow hall backed up to a exterior perimeter and Delta was worried that there would be an IED attack on the chow hall which would catch the vast majority of the soldiers unarmed and unprepared.

    Delta's warnings (and advice that personnel in the mess hall should still be armed) were never heeded, so Delta took it upon themselves to stay armed in the event there was an attack. While armed, their rifles were empty chamber, hammer up, mag inserted. Since the rifles were hammer up, you couldn't engage the safety. The 'this is my safety' comment is out of context in both the book, and movie. It was part of a bigger conversation and preparedness struggle between the Rangers and Delta.
    I was about to respond with what Paul told us about that incident before reading the whole three pages. What you said is correct per Paul Howe.

    ETA from the link posted earlier:"Someone put a lot of thought and time in designing safeties for a reason. Proper range
    fire and the use of cover will expand your reaction time and decrease the reaction time
    and visual angles of your opponents while giving you an added sense of confidence.
    Use the safety and keep your lead going where you intend it to go, not in yourself, your
    buddy or an innocent civilian.
    "
    Last edited by thopkins22; 11-03-09 at 12:37.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyTTE View Post
    Uhh...

    Just for the record, I asked Paul Howe about that comment and he explained the 'whole' story. It had nothing to do with being 'too elite for rules'. The chow hall backed up to a exterior perimeter and Delta was worried that there would be an IED attack on the chow hall which would catch the vast majority of the soldiers unarmed and unprepared.

    Delta's warnings (and advice that personnel in the mess hall should still be armed) were never heeded, so Delta took it upon themselves to stay armed in the event there was an attack. While armed, their rifles were empty chamber, hammer up, mag inserted. Since the rifles were hammer up, you couldn't engage the safety. The 'this is my safety' comment is out of context in both the book, and movie. It was part of a bigger conversation and preparedness struggle between the Rangers and Delta.
    Roger Dodger, its cool to know the actual history ie truth behind that comment. What i was referring to was the typical debate that ensues whenever that particular clip/situation is brought up.

  6. #46
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    Rob and Mark, haven't you guys been at each others' throats for like, 2 years?

    Either duel, make out, or get over it.

    You guys are almost as bad as RickRock and my boy SafetyHit.
    Last edited by Outlander Systems; 11-03-09 at 13:18.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyTTE View Post
    Uhh...

    Just for the record, I asked Paul Howe about that comment and he explained the 'whole' story. It had nothing to do with being 'too elite for rules'. The chow hall backed up to a exterior perimeter and Delta was worried that there would be an IED attack on the chow hall which would catch the vast majority of the soldiers unarmed and unprepared.

    Delta's warnings (and advice that personnel in the mess hall should still be armed) were never heeded, so Delta took it upon themselves to stay armed in the event there was an attack. While armed, their rifles were empty chamber, hammer up, mag inserted. Since the rifles were hammer up, you couldn't engage the safety. The 'this is my safety' comment is out of context in both the book, and movie. It was part of a bigger conversation and preparedness struggle between the Rangers and Delta.
    I have trained under Jim Smith (Spartan Tactical) who was also Delta on the ground in Mogadishu BHD. He also teaches use of the safety when not on target, to the point of refering to it as "non negotiable".

    Spartan Tactical AAR
    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33049
    Last edited by CAPT KIRK; 11-03-09 at 14:18.
    "God made Cops, so Firemen could have Heroes."
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAPT KIRK View Post
    I have trained under Jim Smith (Spartan Tactical) who was also Delta on the ground in Mogadishu BHD. He also teaches use of the safety when not on target, to the point of refering to it as "non negotiable".
    Paul Howe was the same as well.
    Kelly H
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  9. #49
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    A couple of quotes from Kyle Lamb who has been there and done that as well.

    Also, ALWAYS engage your safety between strong to support side transitions. ALWAYS. A mishandled, unsafe weapon could have dire consequences. Be Safe!
    If you disengage your safety before you have a target to engage, you are wrong.
    Lamb, Kyle. Green Eyes & Black Rifles Warriors Guide To The Combat Carbine. Third Edition. Trample & Hurdle Publishers, 2008. 153,181. Print.

  10. #50
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    If your finger is in the trigger guard, your safety should be off. If your finger is out of the guard, safety should be on. If you are not engaging a target, your finger should be out of the trigger guard.

    This works for BB guns, airsoft guns, rifles, pistols or shotguns. It's not hard to understand.

    A question for markm. What was the specific reason that you guys lined up in a stack with safeties disengaged? Was it to enhance your performance? Were you trained that way by an organization? Was it mandated by higher leadership?

    Gringop

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