Aimpoint, Aimpoint & magnifier, or ACOG w/ Doc

**Submariner** · 11-14-09, 14:23

Originally Posted by gjj

The bottom line is that I find the ACOG as fast as the T1 up close. In situations where I can't see the reticle, I will point shoot.

Have you ever shot Jeff Gonzales' Modified Navy Qual (5 rounds standing; speed reload, five shots kneeling; speed reload; five shots prone at 50 yards in 25 sec.) or Pat Rogers' MEU (SOC) Course (50 yards and in to 3 yards) with your ACOG? With which did you get more hits, making times, the ACOG or the T-1? Did you get solid hits point shooting?

**gjj** · 11-14-09, 15:50

His is not about playing gun games with stationary targets at fixed distances when you know it is your turn to shoot. It is about the liability of the added decision loop from Puting two sights on your gun when you have to react to a sudden unexpected threat at an unknown distance that will most likely be moving.

For the real world threats less than 50yds, I would rather have the T1. The ACOG would be my second choice. The worst solution would be to have both. Less is more.

**gjj** · 11-14-09, 15:51

This is not about playing gun games with stationary targets at fixed distances when you know it is your turn to shoot. It is about the liability of the added decision loop from Puting two sights on your gun when you have to react to a sudden unexpected threat at an unknown distance that will most likely be moving.

For the real world threats less than 50yds, I would rather have the T1. The ACOG would be my second choice. The worst solution would be to have both. Less is more.

**Submariner** · 11-14-09, 17:25

No need to hammer me.

Or was that a controlled pair?

Originally Posted by gjj

I think having two possible sights on a gun slows you down. When you mount the gun in a dynamic environment (for me this is hunting), you hestitate because your brain has to decide "which sight will I use?"

Then train yourself so you don’t have to decide.

Originally Posted by gjj

For the real world threats less than 50yds, I would rather have the T1. The ACOG would be my second choice. The worst solution would be to have both. Less is more.

OK. It looks like we agree on these basic precepts.

Originally Posted by Failure2Stop

I am a military dude and my recommendations are based off of my impression of sub 200 meter use of lethal force in daylight, twilight, and darkness, which I assume is most relevant to your needs.

I really like Aimpoints due to their durability and "always-on" caipability.
I like Aimpoints with 100 meter/yard zeroes for a 0 to 200 envelope.
I like 3X to 4X magnification for distances past 100 meters for identification, descrimination, and precision.
I do not like magnification for distances under 50 meters.
_________________
We do not rise to the occasion,
we fall to our level of training.

We are told that most fights occur within 200m. This is certainly true for any fight in which a regular citizen, non-peace officer might find himself. Train to go to the T-1 as default. Every time. Then, if you find yourself needing identification, discrimination or precision, rotate outboard and go to the ACOG.

There are some 50,000 ACO/RCO’s in the Marine Corps today, many without an MRD sight. A BUIS is generally not issued but the carry handle is. The offset T-1 might just bridge the gap from 0-50m where magnification is for many of them, but not you, an identified issue.

Originally Posted by gjj

It is about the liability of the added decision loop from Puting two sights on your gun when you have to react to a sudden unexpected threat at an unknown distance that will most likely be moving.

The technique outlined above greatly limits the liability which concerns you. Always go to the T-1 so there is no time lost in taking the decision. It also helps those of us who are not as fast as you are with the ACOG to be fast with a T-1.

Of course, fast without hits isn’t really helpful either.

Originally Posted by gjj

This is not about playing gun games with stationary targets at fixed distances when you know it is your turn to shoot.

What standard(s) do you test against to determine if your performance is improving?

BTW, I got one of the first run of the LT-724's. That was less than a month ago. How much shooting did you do with yours before you sold it?

**gjj** · 11-14-09, 18:01

I gave it a month before it became obvious to me that I could not possibly overcome 40+ years of training to mount the rifle normally. Based on the fact that most of us also shoot other guns that do not require rotation in addition to the AR, I am skeptical that training is possible to pick up the offset T1 as the primary sight automatically every time. I think the decision loop will always be there.

Hey, at least we agree on this ... Submariner said it best; "there isn't a dimes difference between the two parties"

**Submariner** · 11-14-09, 19:02

So you are a geezer, too?

I learned how to retain the carbine grip in my strong hand and do manipulations with the support hand, contrary to everything I had been taught forty years ago.

Pretty much all we shoot are carbines with Aimpoints. The rifle starts 30 degrees to port in the shoulder and comes up. So far it's working. YMMV.

**UrbanRunner** · 11-14-09, 21:12

OK, I'm really leaning towards the straight Aimpoint (option #1) but I also think I will stick with my borrowed Aimpoint CompM2 for a while to give this some more thought and hopefully examine the options in person before laying out the cash. Although I'm now leaning strongly towards the Aimpoint my list of options has now actually grown:

1) Aimpoint M4s
2) Aimpoint M4 w/ magnifier
3) ACOG TA33G-H
4) Accupoint TR24-3G
5) S&B 1.1–4 x 24 Zenith Short Dot LE

I almost hit the "place order" button for #1 last night but then was not sure what mount I should go with...

and then re-read all the related posts in this thread and others...

**El Mac** · 11-14-09, 21:27

Originally Posted by Submariner

Even though I agree with rob_s, the H-1 on an LT-724 works well in close, particularly when we train to go to the Aimpoint first. I could not stand to sell the TA31F at market price. This made keeping it worthwhile. Best of both worlds. YMMV.

I would have given my eye teeth for one of those while in Afghanistan!!! Sweet!