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Thread: Let's talk bare-bones BOK

  1. #1
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    Let's talk bare-bones BOK

    From the TCCC:
    60% Extremity Hemorrhage
    33% Tension Pneumothorax
    6% Airway Obstruction

    Let's assume, for the purposes here, that we're talking about being stateside and with 30 minute response time from EMS and 60 minutes to get to an emergency room or trauma center.

    Let's also have a goal of an AR double-mag pouch (or triple if needed) as a size limit.

    I think anyone/everyone would include a tourniquet or two.

    Trauma dressing (Israeli, Oales, Cinch-Tight, Thin-Cinch, 4" vs 6", etc.) seems to be a common theme.

    NPA?

    Better to use a dedicated chest seal or rely on the wrapper from the trauma bandage and some tape?

    Hemostatics seem to illicit some controversy, but better to have and not need? Worthless stateside with 30 minute EMS response?

  2. #2
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    You have, no doubt, already read the Doc Gunn AAR on p. 72 of the Dec. SWAT, an issue in which you have an article.

    He recommends a tourniquet on the vest or in the range bag along with the basic kit.

    The key is having the skill to identify which tool needs to be used and how to properly use it. Tools can be good or better. What do you want to do and how much do you want to spend to do it?

    But you already knew this.

    ETA: I went with the IBD because there is cheap training available which has recently been updated:

    http://www.ps-med.com/bandage/bandage_training.html

    The six inch IBD (with slider,) NPA, and catheter, all wrapped with three strips of tape, will fit in single Eagle M4 pouch. There is room for an Ascherman if you desire. With a TK-4 in a Blue Force Tourniquet NOW! StrapTM and the Eagle single, you have used three vertical PAL rows.
    Last edited by Submariner; 11-20-09 at 07:46. Reason: add comment
    "The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts." Justice Robert Jackson, WV St. Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

    "I donít care how many pull ups and sit ups you can do. I care that you can move yourself across the ground with a fighting load and engage the enemy." Max Velocity

  3. #3
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    I have a small one in my range box at home. It's geared mostly toward being shot once accidentally, rather then someone trying to riddle either myself or my wife or someone else with holes.

    Kerlix
    Ace Wrap
    TQ
    Hyfin dressing
    Three Inch Med Tape
    NPA and lube
    Celox
    No.7 hook

    Should fit in a triple M4 pouch.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
    You have, no doubt, already read the Doc Gunn AAR on p. 72 of the Dec. SWAT, an issue in which you have an article.
    Part of the impetus for this thread

    The needle thing bugs me. I haven't been trained on it, but I've been told that the training should be a lot more than just "stick here".

    graphic example of common dangers of needle decompression! GRAPHIC

    I'd also be interested to know how quickly tension pneumothorax kills. If it takes hours, and stateside EMT response is 60 minutes or less, then it may not be needed in the kind of range kit I'm thinking of for use on established ranges.

    Obviously there is an argument to be made that if you're on an established range why not have a full bag with 2-3 of everything you might ever need, but I'd like to skip that argument for now.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
    ETA: I went with the IBD
    Did you strip off the outer wrapping? I think I'd do that with mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I'd also be interested to know how quickly tension pneumothorax kills.
    Good question! This wasn't addressed. I surmise that it can be quick; otherwise the catheter would not be included in the kit. Let me contact him and find out what he says.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Did you strip off the outer wrapping? I think I'd do that with mine.
    No. It is a tight wrap. The outer cover has instructions. The tear points are on the ends so the wrapper is large enough to use for the Ascherman substitute. The tear point on the inner wrap is in the center and makes the inner wrap virtually unusable.

    One more point: medical supply houses generally say federal law requires them to have a prescription before hey will ship catheters. Tactical Response sells the same 3.25-inch decompression needle included in their VOK without a prescription. It is needle only, though, no catheter.
    Last edited by Submariner; 11-20-09 at 08:23. Reason: answer rob_s
    "The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts." Justice Robert Jackson, WV St. Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

    "I donít care how many pull ups and sit ups you can do. I care that you can move yourself across the ground with a fighting load and engage the enemy." Max Velocity

  7. #7
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    TPT can vary in time. Getting them to definitive care should be more of a priority.

    NCD's - Get training on them. They're not difficult when you know what body part is where.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
    Tactical Response sells the same 3.25-inch decompression needle included in their VOK without a prescription. It is needle only, though, no catheter.
    They have the 14 gauge 3.25 NCD catheters listed on their site. I can't find them without the cath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Boy View Post
    NCD's - Get training on them. They're not difficult when you know what body part is where.
    +1

    Not only that, but often there are people there that might be better trained then you are. Those people, may not have their own kit with them, or their kit may not be close by.

    Anyways suggestions:
    http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/...oducts_id=4154

    Fits in a double, or triple Mag Pouch.

    And it can fit the items that you are most likely to need:
    Pressure Dressing (I like the H-bandage)
    Quikclot Combat Gauze
    TK-4
    NPA
    Decompression Needle

    Of course you can vary the contents.

  10. #10
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    Bare bones?

    Old Paratrooper Pack:

    1. Tourniquet
    2. Pressure Dressing
    3. Morphine Syrette (optional)
    It is bad policy to fear the resentment of an enemy. -Ethan Allen

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