Review on Trijicon TA33 R8 and Aimpoint T1 in off set mount

[Alaskapopo]

Well updated range report. I went back to the range today earlier in the day so I would have more daylight. The day started out not too bad with only light snow. I shot a few groups and found out the the Zero from the night before was about 5 inches high. I think me using my flashlight to lite the reticle must have caused it to bloom too much and hence caused me to shoot higher. I was very happy with the way the TA33 shot today. I was able to get groups around 1.25 inches consistently. It was far easier to get good groups with than my Aimpoint with the 3X magnifer behind it. This had to do with my astigmatism and the dot in the Aimpoint looks more like a diagonal foot ball.

Here are some photos of the range conditions and the targets I shot with the Acog to start it all off.







After shooting some groups I burnt some ammo shooting some qualification courses.

The course is simple
Stage 1
100 yards starting from prone or rested (not off bags or bi pod but using the bench like it was a car hood or other cover) fire 3 rounds in 6 seconds to center mass.

Stage 2

50 yards. From low ready fire 3 rounds to center mass from standing in 8 seconds.

Stage 3
25 yards. (set gun up with partial mag no more than 4 rounds) start from low ready and fire 6 rounds in 10 seconds. You will have to perform a mandatory run dry reload.

Stage 4.

15 yards. Start with the rifle slung and shoot 3 rounds standing and 3 rounds kneeling in 10 seconds.

Stage 5.

Start in the low ready at the 10 yard line. At the buzzer fire 6 rounds while advancing on the target in 5 seconds prior to reaching the 5 yard line. All shots must be made while moving.

Stage 5.
Fail to stop drill at 5 yards

Start in the low ready and fire 2 to the chest and 1 to the head in 2 seconds. Repeat once

Its a 30 round course of fire. Its fairly easy but a fun skills test to put the rifle through its paces.

Scoring is as follows.

Over time shots -5
A zone 5 points
B zone 4 points except on stage 5 where its worth 1 point.
C zone 4 points
D zone 1 point

Max score possible 150.

Here is what the target looks like.



I shot two qualifications with the rifle and I shot a 148 each time.

OBSERVATIONS:

I used the TA33 at 100 yards, 50 yards and at 25 yards. It was easy to make good hits with. It was fast and precise for me. Better than my Aimpoint M4 with the 3x magnifier.

I used the T1 Aimpoint at 15 yards, 10 yard moving drill and for the failure drills at the end. The T1 is wicked fast. I really liked it. With my Vltor stock it was easy to start with the rifle in low ready already canted. It seemed nature to shoot it this way and my times on the failure drill were fast. One was .90 for all three shots. The average was 1.20

The two points I dropped where while moving and shooting.

After I was done with the qualifications I had about 15 rounds or ammo left. I decided to shoot failure drills with the remaining ammo. I found the T1 very fast and easy to use.

CONCLUSION:

This system is superior in my opinion to my Aimpoint with 3x magnifier in a flip mount system. I also think its superior in some ways to my Swarovski 1-6 power scope. The main reason there being its lighter and all I have to do to switch optics is cant the gun slightly. With the Swarovski to switch power levels you must manipulate the adjustment ring. Even with the cat tail this takes longer.

I feel that a T1 set up like this in conjunction with a ACOG or similar longer range optic is a great system and in my opinion at this moment is the best option in solving the old problem of which optic is best overall for short and medium range shooting.
Pat

[sovereign]

Is anyone here running a T-1/TA11 Larue offset combo?

If so, I have a question:

Is it possible to mount the TA11/LT-100 all the way forward on the receiver and tuck the T-1 offset to the rear, in between the LT-100 and Troy BUIS, etc.? Is there enough clearance for the T-1 to ride up close to the TA11 body?

[8200rpm]

Thanks for the write up. It's nice that you included a "qualification course" as a performance reference.

I currently have a TA33R-8. I've considered a similar set up, but always talked myself out of it. I couldn't decide if supplementing the ACOG with a close range optic was worth the "training cost" of having two optics/cheekwelds and consequently a "snap decision" when shouldering the rifle.

Considering your favorable write up, I'm inclined to experiment using a mini-red dot and a Daniel Defense offset mount...




It's apples and oranges when compared to the Micro H-1/Larue, but it's also $600 vs $240.

Although not conducive to switching quickly back and forth, the even cheaper alternative is to use a flip up lens cover on the ACOG, keep both eyes open, and use it as an occluded eye gunsight. Might be worth testing out on stage 4, 5, and 6.

[rob_s]

After shooting some groups I burnt some ammo shooting some qualification courses.

The course is simple
Stage 1
100 yards starting from prone or rested (not off bags or bi pod but using the bench like it was a car hood or other cover) fire 3 rounds in 6 seconds to center mass.

Stage 2

50 yards. From low ready fire 3 rounds to center mass from standing in 8 seconds.

Stage 3
25 yards. (set gun up with partial mag no more than 4 rounds) start from low ready and fire 6 rounds in 10 seconds. You will have to perform a mandatory run dry reload.

Stage 4.

15 yards. Start with the rifle slung and shoot 3 rounds standing and 3 rounds kneeling in 10 seconds.

Stage 5.

Start in the low ready at the 10 yard line. At the buzzer fire 6 rounds while advancing on the target in 5 seconds prior to reaching the 5 yard line. All shots must be made while moving.

Stage 5.
Fail to stop drill at 5 yards

Start in the low ready and fire 2 to the chest and 1 to the head in 2 seconds. Repeat once

Its a 30 round course of fire. Its fairly easy but a fun skills test to put the rifle through its paces.

Scoring is as follows.

Over time shots -5
A zone 5 points
B zone 4 points except on stage 5 where its worth 1 point.
C zone 4 points
D zone 1 point

Max score possible 150.

I shot two qualifications with the rifle and I shot a 148 each time.

OBSERVATIONS:

I used the TA33 at 100 yards, 50 yards and at 25 yards. It was easy to make good hits with. It was fast and precise for me. Better than my Aimpoint M4 with the 3x magnifier.

I used the T1 Aimpoint at 15 yards, 10 yard moving drill and for the failure drills at the end. The T1 is wicked fast. I really liked it. With my Vltor stock it was easy to start with the rifle in low ready already canted. It seemed nature to shoot it this way and my times on the failure drill were fast. One was .90 for all three shots. The average was 1.20

The two points I dropped where while moving and shooting.

This qual is all on one target I presume?

[Alaskapopo]

Thanks for the write up. It's nice that you included a "qualification course" as a performance reference.

I currently have a TA33R-8. I've considered a similar set up, but always talked myself out of it. I couldn't decide if supplementing the ACOG with a close range optic was worth the "training cost" of having two optics/cheekwelds and consequently a "snap decision" when shouldering the rifle.

Considering your favorable write up, I'm inclined to experiment using a mini-red dot and a Daniel Defense offset mount...




It's apples and oranges when compared to the Micro H-1/Larue, but it's also $600 vs $240.

Although not conducive to switching quickly back and forth, the even cheaper alternative is to use a flip up lens cover on the ACOG, keep both eyes open, and use it as an occluded eye gunsight. Might be worth testing out on stage 4, 5, and 6.

Give it a shot I think you will be happy. The T1 is great and very durable but I still think you will have good luck with the sight you listed. At least enough to know if you like the set up.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

This qual is all on one target I presume?

Yes sorry. I did not practice transistions other than from the body to the head. I had limited ammo and daylight. Next range visit I want to try two or three targets at different ranges 1 at 5 yards, 1 at 25 and a 50 yard head shot. I would put it at 100 but I don't want to walk down that far each time I do the drill.
Pat

[Submariner]

Is it possible to mount the TA11/LT-100 all the way forward on the receiver and tuck the T-1 offset to the rear, in between the LT-100 and Troy BUIS, etc.? Is there enough clearance for the T-1 to ride up close to the TA11 body?

I have a TA31F on an LT100 and another on an RCO and a TA51 mount. I cannot speak for your TA11; however, I can position the TA51 and RCP mount forward on the rail, mount the LT724 and clear the Troy base; however, with the locking levers on the left side (LT100) you cannot position the LT724 up against the base. You need the levers on the right side to do what you propose (LT622?).

Hope this helps.

[Alaskapopo]

11-28-09

I took the day off and went to the range with a buddy. I wanted to put this optic combination through more paces with multiple targets.

Ok I did some more work with my TA33 and T1 Aimpoint today.

I placed 3 USPSA targets down range. 1 target was 4 yards to my left and 10 yards down range. The second target was 45 yards right in front of me. The third target was 5 yards to my right and 32 yards down range. On the buzzer from a low ready position I fired 2 rounds using the Aimpoint into target 1 then I used the Acog on the remaining 2 targets. I did this 6 times. (30 rounds fired) and then I went down and added up the points.

Then my friend shot the same courts with my gun. Then we did it again. So we each did this drill 10 times.

Here are my run times from the first 5

1. 5.17
2. 4.53
3. 5.10
4. 4.23
5. 4.80

When I added up the targets this is what I had.
Target one had 9 Alphas and 1 Charlie.
Target two had 7 Alphas 1 Charlie and 2 Deltas
Target three had 5 Alphas and 5 Charlies.

My total points using a minor power factor scoring (5 for A’s, 3 for C’s and 1 for D’s)
Was 128
Total time was 23.83

My hit factor (points divided by time) was 5.371

My friend who is usually a better shooter then me had these results.

1. 5.41
2. 5.59
3. 5.80
4. 6.35
5. 5.07
Target 1 9 Alpha 1 Charlie
Target 2 10 Alpha
Target 3 3 Alpha 4 Charlie 3 Delta

Total points for Scott was also 128.
Total time was 28.22
His hit factor was 4.53

I got him on the first round.


2nd string.

Me
1. 5.55
2. 6.01
3. 4.82
4. 5.15
5. 4.32

Targets
T1 9A 1C
T2 8A 2 C
T3 3A 2C 1D 2 M (misses Ouch)

Total points with penalties

96 (those misses killed me) Got sloppy on the second string.
Total time was 25.85
Hit factor was 3.71

Scotts results for the second string

1. 4.87
2. 4.99
3. 5.61
4. 5.71
5. 4.88
T1 10 A
T2 8A 2C
T3 8A 2C

Total points 142
Total time was 26.06

Hit factor 5.44

Both strings combined

Pat Hit factor 4.5
Scott Hit factor 4.97

Impressions. It was very easy to switch between the Aimpint and the Acog when going from a close target to a longer target. My friend really liked the set up and picked it up fast. Jerk beat me with my own gun.

We did the same drill with his three gun set up.




He took the bi pod off before we began shooting.


Scott string 1
1. 5.94
2. 6.84
3. 5.89
4. 7.70
5. 5.60

Total Time 31.97
Total points on target 140
Hit factor 4.379

Me

1. 7.32
2. 7.84
3. 5.96
4. 5.96
5. 6.06
Total time 27.18
Total points 138
Hit factor 5.07

String 2

Scott
1. 6.72
2. 5.97
3. 7.03
4. 5.39
5. 5.48
Total time 30.59
Total points 136
Hit factor 4.44

Me string 2 ( I could only due to runs because his rifle malfunctioned twice in a row with Tango Down ARC mags. The bolt would not push the round into the chamber. I have had issues with these mags in other guns before. They are just range mags now.

1. 5.79
2. 5.26
3. 5.58
4. 6.30

Total time 22.93
Total points 108
Hit factor 4.70

Both strings combined hit factor

Scott 4.385
Me 4.885

So he beat me with my own gun and I beat him with his own gun.

Observations.
The light carbine with the Acog’s lit reticle definitely did better on this course than did his heavier rifle with his scope set at 2.5 and using his side sights on the first target. I would have liked to have shot more but its winter in Alaska and it gets dark soon. Plus we have had about 2 feet of snow in the last few days and then rain so it was a pain in the arse to walk down range. Hence why I did not shoot this drill with a 100 yard target. We did shoot two qualifications with my rifle. I dropped 6 points and he dropped 10.

The more I shoot my set up (Acog and AImpoint) the more I like it.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Well I have done some testing over the last few weeks with this optic set up. I have ran some drills that involved firing at 3 USPSA targets at 7 yards that were spaced 3 yards apart. I shot both the Aimpoint, The TA 33 and the BUIS on this drill to see which was the fastest. I also shot 3 rifle qualificaitons today. The first time using the TA 33 until the moving and shooting drill at 10 yards (shoot 6 rounds in 5 seconds while moving foward to the 5 yard line) and I also used the Aimpoint at the the 5 yard line shooting 2 to the chest and one round to the head.

During the qualficaitons I got a perfect score on the first qual using both optics.

The qualificaiton goes like this.
Stage 1 100 yards. From prone or from a leaning rest on a taller barricade shoot 3 rounds in 8 seconds.

Stage 2 50 yards.

From low ready fire 3 rounds in 8 seconds.


Stage 3 25 yards. (set mag up with between 0 and 4 rounds give to shooter)

From low ready fire 6 rounds centermass in 15 seconds. You will run out of ammo and will have to perform a run dry reload.

Stage 4 15 yards.

With the weapon slung at the buzzer get your weapon and fire 3 rounds standing and three rounds kneeling.

Stage 5. 10 yards to 5 yards shooting on the move.

From low ready fire 6 rounds while moving forward in 5 seconds stopping at the 5 yard line.

Stage 6 5 yards.

From the low ready. Fire 2 rounds center mass and one round to the head in 2 seconds. Repeat once. I posted the qualification course incorrectly earlier in this thread. That was an old course before I tweaked it into this. Only a few minor changes.


Then I shot the qual again using just the aimpoint. I went a little high on my head shot and had one out in the body for a score of 145. The head shot in the B zone dropped my score by 4 points as it is weighted more than body shots that hit the C zone. I only lost one point on that one. The Aimpoint was easy to shoot with on the move. The only down side is it was so easy it made me want to go to fast and hence the shot just outside on the head shot.



Next I shot the qual with the TA33 ACOG for all the stages. I pulled one shot at 50 yards and one shot while shooting on the move. The score was 148 out of 150. While it performed well enough on the shooting on the move and on the 5 yard fail to stop drills. The magnification felt somewhat awkward although this was not reflected in the score.



In all reality if you take the weighted point system out of the qual the Aimpoint and the ACOG equaled each other in points. Both had 2 shots outside the A zone.

Now for the speed drills results. The first batch of tests were on USPSA targets. The batch from today were on my departments qualification target. The A zone is a 10 inch circle instead of the rectangle used on the USPSA target.

First Batch of testing with USPSA targets.

GUN Noveske N4 carbine Aimpoint T1 used.

TIME

1. 2.69
2. 3.07
3. 2.58
4. 2.58
5. 2.29 (one shot not fired so I am not averaging it in for the time)

Average time for first 4 strings 2.73 seconds.

HITS

T1 8 Alpha 2 Charlie
T2 9 Alpha 1 Charlie
T3 4 Alpha 5 Charlie (one shot was not fired)

TOTAL HITS: 21 A 8C (one round not fired)

N4 just ACOG (TA33 fixed 3 power)

TIME

1. 2.64
2. 2.67
3. 2.80
4. 2.59
5. 2.63

Average time 2.67

HITS

T1 8A 2C
T2 7A 3C
T3 8A 2C

Total hits : 23 A 7C

Second batch with Department targets on 12-8-09

Shooter Me gun Noveske Troy Back Up Irons

Time
1. 3.09
2. 2.63
3. 2.67
4. 2.74
5. 2.61
Average Time 2.75
Hits 29 A 1 C

Shooter Me Gun Noveske Optic Aimpoint T1 Red dot

Time
1. 2.79
2. 2.85
3. 2.88
4. 3.01
5. 2.43
Average Time 2.79
Hits 25 A 5 C

Shooter Me Gun Noveske Optic TA33 ACOG

Time
1. 3.43
2. 2.61
3. 2.64
4. 2.77
5. 3.06
Average Time 2.90
HITS 29 A 1 Delta


I also had one of my patrol officers run the drills with me on 12-8-09 using the Irons, Aimpoint and the ACOG.
Shooter S13 Gun Noveske with Irons

Time

1. 3.89
2. 3.41
3. 3.39
4. 3.51
5. 3.39

Average time 3.52

Hits

30 A

Shooter S13 Gun Noveske with Aimpoint T1

Time

1. 3.50
2. 3.12
3. 2.93
4. 3.07
5. 2.91
Average Time 3.11

Hits 29 A 1 Delta

Shooter S13 Gun Noveske with TA 33 ACOG

Time
1. 4.84
2. 4.32
3. 4.00
4. 3.53
5. 3.32
Average Time 4.00

Hits 29 A 1 C


In conclusion. The TA 33 is an excellent optic from 15 yards and out. It did well in these drills but it feels more awkward when you need to move and shoot. Its also at a disadvantage in low light when compared to the Aimpoint. The Aimpoint is easy to use on the move and is very forgiving on eye relief and also does fine in the dark because its battery powered. I believe these two sights compliment each other and even with 2 optics on my patrol rifle it still is failry light. I need to weigh it but it feels just like the departments iron sighted DPMS (yuck I know) M4's.

After all these tests I made the N4 with this set up my patrol rifle.



I have a sling on it now. But not at the time of the picture.

Earlier Videos.
Me with Noveske using Aimpoint
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi7DKYdU6Q8

Me with Noveske using Acog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksh8WqmXNIY



12-8-09 videos.
S13 firing my Noveske with Irons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp_Tppv7u-M

S13 with the Aimpoint
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5OO7SN1Yjc

S13 with Acog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Duy7-3Hq3k




Me with Noveske using Irons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNk-hHxFJkc

Me with Noveske using Aimpoint T1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNzl_MOdG0o

Me with Noveske using Acog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5rbc56-eQs

[Alaskapopo]

One small update. I found the TA 33's eye relief a tad short for where I had it mounted on my gun. So I removed the Troy BUIS and moved it all the way back. It works better for me now. I figure I don't need a BUIS since I have 2 optics on the gun.


Did some range work with it today.
(three shots for sighting in only. )


I zeroed the ACOG at 50 instead of 100 to help off set the slightly greater drop from 75 grain TAP my duty ammo.






Some videos of me shooting this set up on some cqb drills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z38dbwxEWEE

Older video before I moved the buis off the gun using just the ACOG in this drill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5rbc56-eQs