VT AK Class #1 - Reviews, Comments, and Photos.

[Robb Jensen]

I shot a little more than 700 rifle and 250 pistol.

[Hawkeye]

Communist's I tell ya...the lot of ya.

[Robb Jensen]

Communist's I tell ya...the lot of ya.

Not it's "SOCIALIST CARD CARRYING MOTHER F***ERS"! or POTATO VODKA DRINKING MOTHER F***ERS!

[Business_Casual]

Could you share with us:

Slings - what worked, what didn't
Rigs - where the mags were stored and how was access?
Mags - any problems with particular countries/makers?
Caliber - was it 5.56 and 7.62 or any 5.45?

Thanks,

M_P

[Robb Jensen]

Could you share with us:

Slings - what worked, what didn't
Rigs - where the mags were stored and how was access?
Mags - any problems with particular countries/makers?
Caliber - was it 5.56 and 7.62 or any 5.45?

Thanks,

M_P

Vickers 2pt sling works best, 2nd best is a single point and 3pt being the worst. Chests rigs worked best, except for prone, no problem with any mags. I did crack a clear 5.56mm mag at the NRA Range. 5.56mm in stamped guns needs some fixing/tweaking/refining, mines going back to Arsenal. Milled 5.56mm guns ran fine. 5.45mm and 7.62mm guns both milled and stamped ran fine.

[subzero]

Things I learned from the AK class

- Templar really does know everything about AKs.

- Blackjack or Swift AK selectors are worth their weight in gold. The only reason not to have one, it seems, is because you’re not building a fighting gun.

- SLR-106s aren’t worth a good goddamn to me. I’ve been to 4 or 5 classes that were AR-centric, and never saw so many weapons choke as I did at a freaking AK class, all of them 106s. Those fellows at Arsenal need to fix that POS like right now.

- The Krebs KTR-103S built on an SLR-105 (5.45) is so damn easy to use that it’s like cheating. It is, in my opinion, everything that an AK should be. Larry allowed anyone in the class to shoot his Krebs gun, and I shot it for the entire second day. All I did was flip the lefty sling over, slid the stock in a bit, and squirted a bit of CLP in through the ejection port. What a great gun. Having decent sights is one great reason to love that gun, but the selector is like a drunk cheerleader: free and easy. I told Larry that I don’t think I’d get one, but I found myself surfing GunBroker last night looking for one. I think I will end up scratching that itch sooner or later.

- Seeing an MP-43 broken down, it was remarkable how many other guns you could see when looking at it. Having Larry and Dave bring out pieces of their own collections for us to see was a real treat and a good history lesson. The opportunity to shoot an MP43, well that’s just icing on the cake.

- If I don’t get a Krebs gun, I will definitely purchase an Ultimak rail and put a SPOT on it. GotM4s setup was quite nice in that regard.

- One of the big things I took away from the class is how it’s not really rocket science to switch from an AR to an AK. Practice those reloads (they will f you up), remember to tuck the stock under your armpit. Get a Blackjack or Swift lever and remember to bend it out for easy engagement of the selector. The sights suck, but there are ways around it. Even if you keep them stock, it’s still combat accurate at 100 yards+ if you do your job. I don’t consider myself an advocate of the AK, but after the class if I sat down and compared an AK to an AR in a real apples to apples competition, the AK wouldn’t be nearly as far behind the AR as I would have placed it prior to this weekend. My biggest complaints about the AK have been sights and ergonomics. I know now that both can be addressed to modernize this platform.

- With the course being so AK focused, the course layout was really different from the standard 3 day pistol/carbine in that we hardly shot the pistol at all. For those of you who haven’t taken that class, it’s very pistol-centric and for good reason. Larry touched on it during the first day: pistols are hard to shoot. If you guys had fun at this class, try the 3 day using an AK. I think it’ll be an even bigger eye opener.

- Did I mention how awesome the Krebs gun was? It wasn’t like cheating, it WAS cheating.

- Getting to shoot a full auto Krink and AKM were among the highlights of the weekend for me. I can’t thank Sam enough for bringing out his incredible guns. The Saiga 20 gauge autoloader was just plain NASTY!

- I can’t say enough good stuff about Paul for putting the class together, nor can I say enough good stuff about the effective teaching styles of Dave and Larry. If you show up ready to learn, you will come away with a good skillset and drills you can use to further enhance your skills. Now all I have to do is find a range that will let me shoot on the move.

- Knowing the low round count and the way we have access to our vehicles at all times, I opted for a fairly light belt rig consisting only of on rifle mag, 2 pistol mags, pistol and dump pouch (which usually held an extra rifle mag). It worked well all weekend and I was quite happy with it.

- Slings for AKs. I did some of the weekend with the standard canvas (junk) sling. It’s worthless. Fortunately, Larry addressed this and talked about dealing with that junk sling both in transitions to handguns and switching shoulders. When I heard we would do transitions, I put a single point on the gun. I don’t like single points as a rule, but it’s better than dropping the gun or unslinging it and shooting strong hand only IMHO. A good two point with plenty of extra length is king. Being able to adjust it quickly (a la the Vickers sling) is icing on the cake. If you haven’t gotten the memo already, 3 points are a relic from another time. May as well run it out as a two point.

[TOrrock]

What a great experience!

I had a blast. This was my first class and I learned a lot about movement, transition from long gun to handgun, and what I need to work on.

I have let my handgun skills suffer, and I really need to work on them.

Everyone was great, Larry Vickers has a great attitude that puts you at ease quickly. I've known the other instructor for a couple of years, but never trained with him. He knows his stuff and is one of the nicest guys out there, and he excells at personal instruction.

Small bore Kalashnikovs predominated the class. I believe we had 16 shooters, only 4 of which used an AK in 7.62x39mm. The rest of us used 5.56x45mm and 5.45x39mm.

Arsenal Inc. rifles predominated, with a Vepr and a couple of Romanians making an appearance.

Regarding the Arsenal Inc. SLR-106F situation....six of us were shooting them that I can remember. Three of us had absolutely no issues what so ever.

Katar's, Grant's, and my SLR-106F's ran like raped apes. Never a hiccup. I was using '92 production Radway Green SS-109, Grant was using Winchester M855, and I think Katar was using American Eagle, but I'm not positive.

Dinger initially had several bad feeds with American Eagle, as did Vinh, but the problems went away when they switched to Wolf steel cased. GotM4 had the worst issues....his rifle would malf on American Eagle and Guat.

I believe it's an individual rifle issue. The AK was set up to run with steel cased ammo, although the 106 (and it's milled counterpart, the M5) have spring loaded firing pins to deal with US commerical ammo. It was pointed out that Federal American Eagle uses very soft, low quality brass. I think that's a contributing factor to the feed issues we saw. The round has to jump a good ways from the magazine to the chamber when feeding in an AK, and it has a tiny feed "ramp" that is riveted into the receiver.

The SLR-105 and 106 series of rifles are stamped AK-74 receivers (1mm thick) that are imported in a "banned" configuration, capable of only accepting single stack magazines. Arsenal takes them and then "unbans" them by enlarging the mag well to accept Bulgarian military polymer 5.56mm magazines, replacing the nuetered front sight block with a military one, and they then put the appropriate # of US parts in the rifle to make it a technically "American made" rifle.

It is very important that people try their mags in the rifle a few times before using them, as the polymer mags may need to be broken into the rifle. It's not that big a deal, I don't think. How many of you try the M16 mags you have in your AR for fit and function before using them or taking them to a class? Everyone, right?

What I was seeing with the 106's that were having issues were the rounds missing the feed ramp and being squashed by the bolt against the chamber area.

I don't want to make a blanket negative statement about the 106's, obviously some run like a top. Mine has never had any issues what so ever, but obviously some aren't so lucky. I took two magazines of American Eagle and ran them through my 106 as fast as I could, to try to see if I could induce a stoppage. No issues with the American Eagle when run through my rifle.

When looking in the receiver near the chamber of my rifle, I didn't have much brass shavings at all, while GotM4's had a lot of brass, obviously from the cases not being fed at an optimal angle.

I'm going to try to talk to Arsenal about this. I'm confident that there is a "fix". If you have an issue with yours, I'd suggest calling Arsenal and explaining what's going on, and send it in for warranty repair.

All of the Arsenal 105A1's I saw ran perfectly, as did the milled M5's and M7.

Interestingly, all of the accuracy prizes were won by guys using the SLR-106FR's.

Glocks seemed to be the handgun of choice for most shooters, with a couple of SIG's and M&P's, 1911's, and one HKP7M13 and, at least on the first day, a TT-33 Tokarev!

I can't recommend this class enough. If you can make the time and the trip, definitely try to get in, even if you have to buy a new AK to do it!

Now for some pics. These were taken using my phone, so I apologize for the quality.

Sighting in on the line:



Old school and new school:



GotM4 and Dinger gearing up:



Larry Vickers and his bunny at Cracker Barrel the first night:



On the line, Day 2:







Dinger and the Vinhinator:



Downtime:



Larry Vickers explaining how to get the job done with a Sturmgewehr:



Panzerschreck loading up the Sturmgewehr. He and I have wanted one of these things since we were 12 I think.



Shooting on the move:









My buddy Dave expressing how most of us felt about the class:



The Man Himself........

[Boss Hogg]

Very interesting reviews and photos!

I am taking this class in May and am looking forward to it. Did you guys not shoot any steel?

Thanks also for the tip on the recoil buffer. Do they smooth things out pretty well?

[TOrrock]

I would argue against the recoil buffer. Really, really argue against it.

It's not needed and I've seen more issues resulting from one being installed than just leaving it stock.

Black Jack Buffers sells their safety with the tab and the bolt handle cut out, which can't be recommended enough.



http://http://www.blackjackbuffers.c...64dcc590c2876c

We shot a small steel plate at distance in a competition, but eveything else was paper.

I know you're going to have a great time in May!

[Heavy Metal]

Templar,

Don't forget, I also used an SAR-3 for a half a day and it ran 100%. That means there were at least 4 5.56mm stamped reciever rifles that ran hiccup free.

This says it is not a design issue like the use of stampings but a QA/QC issue where something ain't quite tweaked right on the 106's.

I traded Dinger off some wolf for federal that I will be using for testing in my 2 106's.

One 106 has been fired with Wolf and Remmington commercial without any ammo hang ups like were going on at the class. The other is unfired in the box.

I will see if either exihibit the same issue as the rifles in the class did.