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Thread: Opinion Journal item on student preparedness and value of a degree

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    Opinion Journal item on student preparedness and value of a degree

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...236619168.html

    "By BEN WILDAVSKY

    When President Barack Obama announced earlier this year that the U.S. should aim to have the world's highest proportion of college graduates by 2020, he was staking out an ambitious but hardly a maverick goal. It is widely recognized, by Republicans and Democrats alike, that the gap between the earnings of high-school graduates and college graduates has become a chasm in recent decades. More college graduates would mean more prosperity for individuals—and for the nation, too. Bowing to this logic, governments around the world—from China and India to the Middle East—are trying to boost college attendance for their knowledge-hungry populations.

    As Mr. Obama's goal suggests, there is plenty of room for improvement in the U.S. While nearly seven in 10 high-school graduates go on directly to two- or four-year colleges (up from 49% in 1972), many students are poorly prepared for college and end up taking remedial courses. And huge numbers fail to graduate. Reformers believe, not without reason, that such problems can be solved in part by improved high-school preparation and better college instruction. But is it possible that aiming to increase the number of American college graduates is actually a fool's errand?

    A few skeptics think so. Most prominent among them is Charles Murray, who in "Real Education" (2008) argued that most young people are just not smart enough to go to college and should be encouraged to take other paths instead, especially vocational training. Now comes Jackson Toby with "The Lowering of Higher Education in America," a provocative variation on Mr. Murray's theme.

    Mr. Toby draws on social-science data as well as personal experience—he taught sociology at Rutgers University for 50 years before retiring a few years ago—to decry the intellectual conditions that prevail on the American campus. Sidestepping the matter of students' innate abilities, he blames low academic standards mostly on the easy availability of financial aid to undergraduates who are unqualified for college-level coursework.

    Early on, Mr. Toby concedes that education has become the country's "main economic escalator." But he is alarmed at how few students are prepared to meet even the minimal demands of a real college education. He faults lax college-admission standards that give high schools little incentive to push their students harder. Too many undergrads can't write with minimal competence or understand basic cultural references. Students often take silly, politicized courses. And they feel entitled to inflated grades: Mr. Toby reports that one of his students spewed obscenities at him for ending the young man's straight-A record.

    Perhaps this kind of experience accounts for Mr. Toby's seeming bitterness toward unserious students, whom he calls "unprepared, half-asleep catatonics who drift in late and leave early." Most undergrads, Mr. Toby suggests, enjoy a steady diet of extracurricular hedonism while skating through their coursework (though it's unclear how this claim jibes with his complaints about low graduation rates).

    Worst of all, he says, students have been misled about the value of their degrees. Yes, a bachelor of arts degree commands a wage premium, but less because of a graduate's acquired knowledge than because of the signal that his degree sends to employers about the abilities that got him into college and about a variety of soft skills, such as reliability and problem-solving capacity. Graduates in undemanding majors—in the humanities, for example, or most of the social sciences—are unlikely to earn what their more studious counterparts in, say, engineering can. They are thus disproportionately likely to be saddled with debt and prone to default, Mr. Toby argues. He claims that this pattern amounts to the kind of unsound lending that led to our recent credit crisis—one that he darkly suggests may soon be repeated in higher education. He believes that today's "promiscuous" system of college grants and loans—which, at the federal level, is based largely on financial need—ought to be retooled to focus on academic merit.

    But his platform is less radical than his book's subtitle promises ("Why Financial Aid Should Be Based on Student Performance"). He acknowledges that quite a few states already have merit-based aid. And in a concession to political reality he would continue the federal Pell Grant program, which focuses on need alone. Mr. Toby's main proposal, then, is to require good grades and test scores from those seeking federal student loans. This requirement, he believes, would improve incentives for academic performance and mitigate the inevitable trade-off between widening access to college and maintaining educational standards.

    Strangely, Mr. Toby does not address the biggest objection to merit aid, which is that it usually subsidizes middle- and upper-income students who would go to college anyway. By contrast, need-based aid often provides make-or-break help to low-income applicants: Without grants and student loans, they would probably not go to college at all.

    Mr. Toby sees reduced college opportunities as the price of keeping under-prepared students off campus. But that is one trade-off we should not make, especially when a college degree carries so much value in the marketplace. Our vast and varied college system, to its credit, enrolls all sorts of students. Mr. Toby delineates the system's manifold shortcomings, which badly need to be remedied. And to be sure, academic merit deserves a place in our financial aid system. But the indisputable benefits of college ought to be spread more widely, not less.

    Mr. Wildavsky, a senior fellow at the Kauffman Foundation and a guest scholar at the Brookings Institution, is the author of "The Great Brain Race: How Global Universities Are Reshaping the World," to be published next spring."


    I am posting this is as a conversation-starter for some of us who participated in a rather heated thread about liberal indoctrination on campus. Perhaps we can leave that particular topic aside, and focus on another theme that came up in that thread- student preparedness and the actual merit of mass attendance at our universities..?

    Personally, I think that society pushes kids too much wrt college enrollment. Large numbers of students- many of whom are probably in class (or not!) marking time until they find something else to do-and grade inflation serve to devalue the degrees of everyone to a certain extent. What do you guys think?

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    Grant had some excellent commentary in regards to this topic, if I can find the thread.

    Universities, sadly, are businesses first and foremost.

    I know too many people with degrees working for peanuts. Here in GA, just about anyone with a pulse can get a HOPE Scholarship, and with the decline in standards in High Schools, I do mean anyone with a pulse.

    The only people from my sphere of HS buddies that made anything of themselves, had a positive, not negative, savings, are the ones who answered Uncle Sam's call.

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    Dept of Education has dumbed down the meaning of an HS degree enough to where employers have to ask for bachelors degrees now. Soon the bachelor's degree is next. Not to mention the cost is going up because of govt giving every kid a loan that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise (sound like the housing market?). This is why college tuition cost are rocketing, why would colleges lower cost when every kid walks in with a govt backed loan.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIcfMMVcYZg

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    Last edited by Outlander Systems; 12-23-09 at 12:47.

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    college cost/benefit ratio has been eroding heavily. Cost is dramatically increasing but the benefit isn't really going up as much. Nowadays you have to get real good professional degrees to make your loans and time worth it now. Yet education leaders keep telling you bachelors = success as a flat statement. You gotta get a certain bachelors to make it worth it, and even that is getting eroded. College is becoming more and more of a rip off and its due to govt meddling. College was never meant to be for everyone, but too bad the govt keeps ruining the meaning of an HS degree, to where everyone thinks they have to go to college to stand a chance. Vocational and trade schools are highly underrated and teach you far more marketable skills than a generic bachelors.

    Is College Worth it?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl_24uSPedM
    Last edited by ForTehNguyen; 12-23-09 at 12:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen View Post
    Dept of Education has dumbed down the meaning of an HS degree enough to where employers have to ask for bachelors degrees now.
    Bingo.

    M_P

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    College is pushed too hard as "the" next step after high school. College is not for everyone, nor should it be. That might sound elitist to some, but I don't mean it should exclude students, just that it shouldn't be a place to linger for a few years before joining the workforce doing something you could have done perfectly fine without a degree at all.

    Here's a clue: if you graduate college with a higher principle balance on your student loans than on your starting salary, you screwed up! Maybe there are some exceptions for jobs that start by paying peanuts and then can reach above-average pay levels but generally speaking if you graduate with a $35k/year job and a $50k student loan bill, you must have failed your economics classes.

    Colleges don't care, though. As someone else said, they're businesses, and they want to students. What's really bad is that they don't aim to spit out productive employees and workers -- they want to produce grad students who will hang around another few years, pay them money, and work on projects that bring in grant money (and prestige, and the students and grant money that follow).

    The country needs a well-balanced workforce, but we're tipping in the direction of all Chiefs and no Indians. Everyone complains about outsourcing and the weakening industrial base in this country, and then turns around and says everyone should have a college degree? Well of course we all need degrees, so we can all sit around in our offices telling the workers of the world what to to do while drawing a paycheck and benefits.....wait, what? There are no workers left to actually do the work?

    Meanwhile you've got a bunch of grads with degrees that feel entitled to a fat paycheck because they've got a degree, even though they've got no experience and little skills (because college was too busy prepping them to be good research assistants to actually give them career-building skills). Just another symptom in our disease of replacing "self respect" with "self esteem". It's all about me, I'm special don't you know that?

    And don't even get me started on that corrupt lunatic fringe that is at best allowed and at worst, praised, out there in the world of self-righteous, elitist, useless intellectualism. Academia Nuts.
    --Josh H.
    Zombies seek out and eat brains. Don't worry; you'll be safe if they attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOKNLOD View Post
    College is pushed too hard as "the" next step after high school. College is not for everyone, nor should it be. That might sound elitist to some, but I don't mean it should exclude students, just that it shouldn't be a place to linger for a few years before joining the workforce doing something you could have done perfectly fine without a degree at all.

    You could not possibly be more correct. There is an incredible amount of pressure, an expectation really, that all high school kids will go to college. In a lot of ways, a bachelors degree is today what a high school diploma was 30 years ago. It used to be that there weren't as many colleges, fewer people in each of them, and the people who got in and went were the good students who were capable of, and expected to perform at, a high level. It was not for everybody and the work and grading at colleges was serious. Now it's a joke at all but a few schools. Even the Ivy League schools have incredible grade inflation.

    The problem is that "everyone" goes to college now, there are a lot more colleges but a lot of them suck, and a lot of the people going to them should be doing something else. It is amazing how many people I know, usually younger folks, who meandered their way through a 2nd or 3rd rate college (and in some cases even grad school or a top school) who are dumber than rocks, write at a 2nd grade level, and now work menial jobs. It's tough to say for sure, but I doubt that most of them were any better off after 4 years in college from the standpoint of knowledge, skills, or ability, as they quite frankly didn't belong there in the first place. But, they have that piece of paper that says they're "educated."
    Last edited by dbrowne1; 12-23-09 at 14:29.

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    Does anybody here listen to Prager? IIRC he rails against touchy-feely graduate programs. I am paraphrasing, but he routinely says that he believes that the folks with the least common sense and the least *wisdom* (vs. "intelligence" or "knowledge") are the ones most likely to have gone to grad school for stuff like gender studies, sociology, education, etc. The truly dumb are the ones who came from the Ivy Leagues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattjmcd View Post
    The truly dumb are the ones who came from the Ivy Leagues.
    Thanks for the compliment!

    However, engineering graduate programs (EE for me) are a different world compared to the liberal arts programs, which are completely infected with leftists, statists, and other undesirables.
    Last edited by dmancornell; 12-23-09 at 16:06.

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