Opinion Journal item on student preparedness and value of a degree

[EzGoingKev]

A college degree now, is what a HS diploma was 50 yrs. ago. Any job worth having now requires a transcript. Less than a 3.0 and applying for a good job? Won't happen.

Better have a good credit score when they do the background check too.

[dmancornell]

Of my friends from HS, the ones that have made the most of themselves do not have any sort of degree. The ones with the $100K education are not doing ANYTHING in their major and make FAR less money than I do.



When I worked as a USAF contractor, I would sometimes have to work job fair's for the company I was with. I had guys with computer science degrees, engineering degrees and info system degrees all DESPERATE for a job. Then I had a lowly Navy enlisted guy that had C2 experience (GCCS) drop off his resume. He had about 2 years experience, a TS/SCI security clearance and NO college degree.

When I went back to the office, I handed over all the resumes with the ones that looked the best on top to my boss (retired USAF Colonel). He scanned through them all and tossed out ALL the people with college degrees. He reviewed the Navy guys resume and saw that he had high eval's and awards and told me to give him a call.

The guy ended up getting a job with us starting at $60+k a year and 3 weeks vacation.


My boss wanted someone that knew how to get things down and hit the ground running. This was 10 million times more valuable to him than the guys with degrees.


C4

Depends on the job description. Degrees don't guarantee initiative but they *usually* guarantee the minimal technical training required to hit the ground running. I work in CPU design, and six years in school is recommended for anyone who wants to do interesting work instead of spending 4 years doing shit work as on-the-job training. A friend of mine works for a Navy contractor on nuclear power plants, 6 years college minimum just for consideration.

[C4IGrant]

I have a liberal arts degree. Political science.

I make $46,000 a year in my first job out from college.

Yes, I'm in the military.

I would also have gotten 65,000 in loan repayment, if I'd had any.

In the future, I intend to double down and get two Master's degrees, neither of which will ever pay for themselves.

Such is the cost of public service.

I wouldn't criticize all liberal arts degrees. Political science, history and philosophy are all very valuable. Philosophy, for instance, is the best preparation for law school that you can get.

I think the way you did it is the way to go and the degree does not matter.

I also agree about some lib arts degrees being a good idea if you are going into a law degree (for instance).

C4

[C4IGrant]

Depends on the job description. Degrees don't guarantee initiative but they *usually* guarantee the minimal technical training required to hit the ground running. I work in CPU design, and six years in school is recommended for anyone who wants to do interesting work instead of spending 4 years doing shit work as on-the-job training. A friend of mine works for a Navy contractor on nuclear power plants, 6 years college minimum just for consideration.

It does depend the job. If you are coming in to work real time Military OPS, you had better know everything from .Mil lingo to how missions flow. Not to mention needing a security clearance.

I would argue that you could spend 4 years in the Military (as an enlisted) get fantastic training, security clearance, go to college for free and receive a decent salary (all at the same time).

Then get out and get a job for a good bit of coin.

Compare this to MOST college grads that are working for $10 bucks an hour and a large student loan hanging over their head.

After 5 years in the USN, I got out with zero debt, paid for car and $5k in the bank. A year after I got out I was making over $60k. This was in 1999.

Because I was debt free and made a good salary, I was able to start G&R Tactical and then another business. I am the wealthiest person in my family by far. Oh and I am the only one that does NOT have a college degree.


C4

[Littlelebowski]

In agreement with Grant. No degree but military training and self education while I was in the Corps got me to 60K when I got out in 04 to $125K right now.

IT is one of the great fields. Not "what school did you go to" or "what's your degree in" but "what is your experience?" Experience beats degrees every time from what I've seen in IT.

[C4IGrant]

In agreement with Grant. No degree but military training and self education while I was in the Corps got me to 60K when I got out in 04 to $125K right now.

IT is one of the great fields. Not "what school did you go to" or "what's your degree in" but "what is your experience?" Experience beats degrees every time from what I've seen in IT.

Right.

In my last job working for USAF's Air Operation Center SPO (engineering dept.), all of my co-workers had Master's Degrees and were great at the "theory" and "planning" side of things. When the SHTF/rubber met the road, the guys with the hands on technical ability (read problem fixers) were the ones that were called upon to get the job done.

Experience and ability to get the job done is all that counts when things go south. THIS is what people (Govt/companies) will pay for.


C4

[Erik 1]

As somebody who was enlisted Navy before college and then law school, I have to say I generally agree with most of what's been stated in this thread. I truly don't understand why college has become the be all/end all that it has. Along with the over-emphasis on pushing kids towards college, whether they're prepared and have the basic equipment or not, has come an increase in the number of organizations that require college for jobs that just don't seem to warrant it. Personally, I don't think a college degree means much in and of itself. A degree from a good school, with a good transcript - yes. A degree from a middle/lower tier school with a good transcript - also yes. A degree for its own sake - no f'in way.

[ForTehNguyen]

to make a long story short, kids are getting pigeonholed and funneled into debt. HS degree is made worthless by DoE, so you have to go to an overpriced college which govt backed loan programs keep rocketting up tuition costs. Another epic example of why govt shouldnt meddle in stuff like this.

College is more or less a business investment: what type of career returns will you get for X amount of years and Y amount of dollars spent. With the price continually going up, and the quality going down its making less and less sense. These trade schools, vocational schools, and getting internships or apprenticeships seem far superior now.

[Left Sig]

I agree with most of the comments here. But have a couple points to make:

It is not a good idea to generalize based on the IT industry - it is unique because what is taught in college has very little to do with what people actually do in the industry. This is true with a lot of jobs, but even more so with IT. Things change so fast that colleges are always hopelessly behind, so experience and the various professional certifications you can get seem to hold a lot more weight. IT is really a wild frontier of sorts.

However, while technical skills seem to get people into IT jobs, management skills are sorely lacking IMO. Managing people and projects is an art that takes time, training, and experience. This is being addressed with things like PMP certification, but that is still a test based on a course of subject matter, and not a substitute for actual management experience and training.

The value of a BA/BS in many LAS fields is questionable unless used a prep for a professional graduate degree. Many LAS degrees are useless in the job market, except for jobs that require any degree, because they do not provide the graduate with any marketable skills, except for reading books and writing papers. Science degrees generally lead to little in their fields without an MS or PhD.

Professional degrees are getting more and more important. If you want to work in accounting, try doing it without a degree and a CPA license. Finance is similar. Chemical, electrical, structural, and mechanical engineering pretty much require a degree, and in some cases a professional license which requires the degree. Just a regular business degree is better than most LAS degrees, because at least you learn about business, which is what most businesses are involved in!

Lots of students are getting really bad advice from parents, teachers, counselors, and other academics. They say study what you like and don't treat college as vocational education. That's fine if you want to expand your mind and don't plan to work for a living. If you do, you better consider what jobs the degree will lead to.

I have no idea why anyone would spend $25K-$40K a year at a private liberal arts college unless they are already wealthy. An in-law of mine got a nearly $100K teaching degree to make 1/4 to 1/3 of that as an elementary school teacher.

The last thing is that many college students perform poorly because they are not mature enough to handle the responsibilities of living on their own. I went to a top engineering program where everyone had to do very well in high school to be admitted, and we still had people flunk out left and right not because they were stupid or unprepared, but because they weren't mature and disciplined enough to go to class and do the work. A lot of college students are like this, and should have spent a couple years working, or in the military until they were truly ready for college.

[Littlelebowski]

IT is definitely unique and probably one of the last true, merit driven fields.