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Thread: Great article on the MP5

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    ...Range: Again, cannot argue that the 5.56mm is inferior here...
    Todd, was the above quote a typo? If not, please expand.
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  2. #32
    ToddG Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlosDJackal View Post
    Todd, was the above quote a typo? If not, please expand.
    Totally a typo. Fixed it in the original. Thanks for catching it!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    The MP5SD is a terrible choice for anything but fun at the range.
    What is it about the SD that makes it less than desirable for swat callouts? Bear in mind I have never handled nor seen an MP5 of any iteration in real life.

  4. #34
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    The MP5SD barrel is ported to reduce the velocity of 115gr ball to subsonic.
    There is no reason LE should use 115gr ball, much less at reduced velocity. LE use that requires subsonic stealth seems a bit of a stretch, especially with reduced terminal performance trade off.

    The big reason is that factory 147gr HP ammo is subsonic in a standard barrel, AND designed for terminal performance at that velocity. So you can have quiet and terminal performance.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
    mp-5.. what's to like?

    Unergonomic dive weight

    -safety cannot be flinged off & on in the manner new carbines & PDW's can.. so need be run hot off safe

    -most users go dry and figure it out with an loud useless hammer drop on this low recoil non bolt lock back weapon

    -reload cycle is very slow

    -stock is either to long or to short for modern shooting techniques

    -trigger blows

    -heavy and bulky compared to true PDW's

    -not gadget friendly.. format not optimized for IR/vis laser and lights

    -pitiful terminal ballistics for the size/weight

    -unable to rapidly switch from expanding to penetrating, combo of slow reload and anemic 9mm round performance/selection

    -HK customer service blows.. keeping a fleet of them up can be trying.. ask institutional users

    I imagine the majority of SWAT task could be accomplished with a ballistic shield and a hatchet... but their are certainly more elegant solutions
    What Dano said. Great post.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Katar View Post
    Not to mention what a civilian conducting home defense might need.
    The calculus is a little different for non-LE folks when one considers the cost of a 5.56mm carbine or SBR versus an MP5.

    I think Mr. Hackathorn's article makes a good argument for downplaying some of the supposed justifications for switching from the MP5 to the M4 or SBR type platforms. I think he overplays the difference in size - the picture shows a 14.5" or 16" carbine with a suppressor, versus a MP5 without a suppressor and with a retractable stock, retracted. Not a fair comparison. The difference between a 10.5" carbine and a MP5 with a fixed stock is minimal.

    He also notes the danger of 5.56 penetrating soft armor. Of course, this is also an advantage depending on what you are facing.

    Aside from cost, I'm not real fond of the MP5 in terms of ergonomics (safety) and manual of arms (reloading an empty gun).
    Last edited by dbrowne1; 01-01-10 at 16:20.

  7. #37
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    How does it compare to the KAC 6x35mm?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbrowne1 View Post
    I think he overplays the difference in size - the picture shows a 14.5" or 16" carbine with a suppressor, versus a MP5 without a suppressor and with a retractable stock, retracted. Not a fair comparison. The difference between a 10.5" carbine and a MP5 with a fixed stock is minimal.
    That is indeed an unhelpful photo. Extend the stock on the MP5 and add a suppressor, and the guns are nearly the same length.

    He also notes the danger of 5.56 penetrating soft armor. Of course, this is also an advantage depending on what you are facing.
    What I gathered from that portion of the article is that the MP5 is a safer choice, because cops have a tendency to shoot other cops. Gosh, how about we don't do that?

    (And while we're at it, how about we help accomplish that by getting serious about NDs, too. Really serious. Like loss of pay. Time off. No more SWAT. Lose your G-ride. Being the meter-maid.)

    Another thought: Wasn't it the NTOA (or maybe ITEMS) that crunched the data on ops injuries and OISs, and found that when cops shoot other cops in the tactical environment, it was mostly lower extremity injuries, where armor would not play a role anyway? That would seem to negate the comparative safety margin of the HK a bit.

    From the article:

    However, the most important drawback to the M4 is the often overlooked fact that if one of the team members is armed with a .223, there is at least one weapon present that can penetrate most police body armor. Accidents happen, and the level of injuries related to friendly fire in police shoot-outs is often a hidden statistic. The Emergency Services Unit (ESU) of the NYPD, easily the team with the most number of callouts in the nation, still issues MP5s. Why? As one team leader said, “We don’t want to kill one of our own guys. An M4 can do that, but an MP5 can’t.”
    In addition, the instructional norm with the HK was to have troop run with the safety off rather than on when the gun was or about to be in play. The norm is the opposite with the M16/AR type, as the safety is easily accessible from the firing grip for the majority of shooters. Those running ARs safety off seem to be folks that transitioned from the HK. This difference would seem to be helpful as well.
    Last edited by ST911; 01-02-10 at 12:09.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    How does it compare to the KAC 6x35mm?
    HA! I've been screaming that in my head, but I didn't want to take us there.
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  10. #40
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    6x35 mm fired from an 8" barrel performs dramatically better than 9 mm from an MP5; for that matter 6x35 mm terminal performance is also superior to 10mm from an MP5/10.
    Last edited by DocGKR; 01-02-10 at 02:28.

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