Question for LEO/SWAT/Military: How to not get FF'd in an emergency.

[masternave]

Like many silly young men, I've spent a lot of bored time imagining impossible heroics in emergencies. Hold ups, bomb threats, etc... what would I do if the guy in front of me pulls a gun on the cashier... what if the power/internet grid goes down... all that good stuff.

As I've gotten a little older, one thought plagues me: suppose I do rise up and play sheepdog, and maybe I don't get shot, maybe I even disarm the guy. How do I avoid getting killed by the good guys? When you bust into a room and I'm on top of a terrorist restraining him with his own weapon, how do I signal you that I'm wanting to co-operate, and don't want to die?

Obviously in most situations my job is to keep my head low and let you pros handle the shooting, but it's troubled me enough to ask. I want to be confident to protect my family and my own life when the time comes, but when you bust the door down and come in, what then? How can I avoid threatening you?

I realize this is too long, and there isn't a perfect answer, but I appreciate your time answering. And thank you for your service. Have a happy New Year.

[telecustom]

Well, this is a tough one. Just a few things:

1. Once the authorities arrive..be non-threatening and compliant.

2. Be prepared to be covered, cuffed, and questioned.

3. Don't give the Officers any problems. Answer the basic questions but don't volunteer anything. Hopefully, the other bystanders will inform the Officers that you are one of the good guys. If there was a confrontation or you had to engage the actual suspect, don't give too much information without a Lawyer present. Remember to cover you butt both physically and legally.

[Oscar 319]

Expect to be treated as a suspect/threat until proven otherwise.

Do E-X-A-C-T-L-Y as you are told, listen carefully.

[CBTech]

You are going to get treated as a threat as well. If it is blatantly obvious that you are restraing the BG, and not the BG himself, then you might just get pushed out of the way.
Just know that it is nothing personal, they just want to cover the bases and keep themselves free from any would be threats.
Even on a CSAR mission a rescue-ee would possibly get zip tied. When people are amped up, dehydrated, in shock, stressed, or scared they tend to do crazy shit and you have to secure them.
Point is, there is now special signal, you'll be treated as a threat to a certain degree, DON'T take it personal.

[Alpha Sierra]

You knew this was coming

[platinumdude]

You knew this was coming

Guess you don't need that if you have an AR. Kind of hard to conceal that. Of course just following my state laws.

[Cascades236]

There is no easy answer.

If it's an active shooter situation we are coming and coming hard. Immediate action is needed to save lives. Anything but immediate compliance will be dealt with, with whatever force is necessary (legal) to stop that threat and move on to the next.

If you have that shooter (and he/she is the only one) detained then it is no longer active and our tactics generally change. Make yourself known before we find you..scream...something to the effect of being an armed friendly with one detained. We'll plan for an ambush but at least you won't surprise us.

Please consider that these situations are dynamic and there will be no right answer that works 100% of the time. Use your head and don't go condition black when we're on your ass.

[6933]

Living in NOLA after Katrina I had a situation. It was the Tues. after the storm, no power, no phone, not even the slimmest chance of calling for help or it ever arriving. No power. It was literally protect yourself and your own. I simply looked at it as living on the frontier in the late 1700's. Only one other neighbor in the "area" and he was 2 blocks away. Mandatory evac. was in force but with my wife a Resident at Ochsner she was required to stay and we had all the necessary paperwork.

At some point in the night around 2-4am, remember no power, watch crapped out after slogging through water, I heard a serious banging/kicking on my neighbors house. I knew they BG's would more than likely be coming to my house next. My thinking was: it would take minutes to get into the front door(barricaded) or windows(debris in the way) and there was at that point only one way in or out through a back door through a maze of debris chocked full of nails, glass, twisted metal, etc. I had previously surveyed my options and was confident the BG's were at a severe disadvantage trying to find a way to the back door. They had not previously surveyed the situation b/c I was on watch during the day, the house backed up to a large canal with a 12ft. fence, and even if they had surveyed the back of the house w/o me knowing, they wouldn't have been able to reach from the back, let alone figure out the path. The amt. and height of debris would not have given them a view at all, let alone a clear one.

I decided it would be better to take the "fight" to them given my terrain knowledge and situational awareness given the f***** up situation. I grabbed a CETME(.308), crept out the maze, peered around a stack of debris, and saw three BG's trying to kick through the neighbor's plywood covered front door. Remember, it was pitch black. There were no lights on for miles. There was no traffic, nothing. I knew they couldn't see me and I would have time enough to haul ass back to the house, lock the door, and place several large items(already strategically placed) in front of it even if, miraculously, they managed to figure out the path.

I dumped three rounds into the ground about 20ft. away, yelled "Get the fu** out of here!" and beat feet. At that point in time, I did not(and do not) consider my behavior in any way "hero." It was simply doing what must be done given the circumstances. I have heard some remark about how cool it would have been to be in NOLA after Katrina, they would've done this, they would have done that. It sucked. Period. I was in a constant state of alert for about 2 wks. It was nerve-wracking and draining. Fu** trying to be a hero, I just wanted to survive. Shitting in a bucket, proper disposal, "showering" from bottled water, living in a house full of mold/mildew, no water, no power; miserable.

When I was 12, we lived in a very rural area. My mother was a teacher and ended up with a stalker. He attempted to enter the house once when I was there with my brother(9 yrs. old), a baby-sitter(16 yr. old female), and me. We were upstairs around 10pm when we heard the downstairs rear door get hammered w/kicks, shoulder, something. It was a tri-level. We were all together in my bro's room just talking. Small town, everyone knew each other, we were friends. I don't know how it happened, maybe it was some mental telepathy left over from Neanderthal days, whatever, but we all hauled ass as one to the front door and up to the street.

The police force consisted of two LE's for the town. Everyone had the home phone #'s for them. That was how small it was. They never patrolled late that I knew of. There was nothing going on. It was seriously rural and this was over 20yrs. ago. Not modern law enforcement. Damned if the head LEO wasn't literally coming down the road in front of our house. He saw us running and already knew something was up. He came out of his cruiser shotgun in hand. By the time he got to the house the BG had disappeared into the thousands of acres of woods surrounding us.

About 2 months later- Dad out of town. Mom had a gut feeling and asked the "new" neighbor(fuc***' Yank: I say that with affection) that lived about 1/2 mile away if we could keep Woody--a large German Shepard that had been used to hunt bear--in the house while Dad was out of town. We grew up around guns and, at that time I was regularly shooting skeet/trap with my beloved Remington 820 in 20g. Mom had been taught by Dad to shoot pistols and kept a .38 w/hollow points close at hand.

Approx. 3am, I was woken up by Woody going crazy. A split second later Mom came out of her room. We had rehearsed what to do if someone broke in. With the house being a tri-level, the only way to the top floor was on a staircase that was a perfect funnel for anyone trying to get up. My Dad's friend's were all Vietnam vets and all had seen serious action(IIRC, two had been LRRP's). I mention this b/c after the first break-in, they had instructed us on the who/what/when/where of what to do in case of a future break-in.

I immediately grabbed my loaded 20g., Mom had her pistol, and we positioned ourselves exactly as we had been instructed. A door way offset from the stair path that gave us perfect coverage of the staircase and provided good cover. The BG's attention would have naturally not been directed towards our direction at first. There would be a high probability we would have the drop on him/them.

We had discussed the situation with the vets and they felt if the BG came back knowing Dad was gone/not gone but that we were there, then his intentions were very bad.

Woody was acting as if he was going to rip the door down himself. Anyone knows when a dog is in the obvious mode for action demonstrated by the type of barking. His barking was the "I'm going to f*** you up if I get to you." The BG started kicking the door in. Flashing through my mind was if he is willing to confront and deal w/the dog, he is going to probably kill everyone before/after her rapes my Mom. As all this was happening(which happened very quickly)I looked at my Mom(she was shaking terribly) and she said, "Michael, you're going to have to do it." It all happened so quickly, response time was at least 20 min. and there was no time to call LE. I knew at that point that I truly could kill someone if I had to. Luckily, the BG stopped, and didn't succeed in making entry. When LE arrived, he told us to shoot through the door next time, he would drag the body in himself, or at least make sure we were covered. Only in a small town in the South. Point to me is: Saying you'll shoot someone and doing it(if that can be deemed heroic) is not cut and dry. It was only having had my hand forced that I actually confronted the decision and truly made it.

[CBTech]

I have heard some remark about how cool it would have been to be in NOLA after Katrina, they would've done this, they would have done that. It sucked. Period. I was in a constant state of alert for about 2 wks. It was nerve-wracking and draining. Fu** trying to be a hero, I just wanted to survive. Shitting in a bucket, proper disposal, "showering" from bottled water, living in a house full of mold/mildew, no water, no power; miserable.

I sure am glad I was deployed from May to December of 2005. We lived in Long Beach, MS at the time (about 15 miles East of where Katrina's eye hit land).
The apartment was less than a stone's throw from the beach. I was releived ,somewhat, because I didn't have to worry about personal effects being looted because I knew right away it was gone. Also the wife, being 7.5 months preggo, evacuated back to Coronado, CA.
I understand alot of the guys I was deployed with wanted to return early but I was like, FU** that place.

I can definately see what 6933 is saying. Sometime's it aint your fight. If you are NOT going to die then sometimes the best thing to do is get a good description. Because you're CC'ing doesn't obligate you to defend humanity.

[NinjaMedic]

I think that if you just kept screaming "POLICE . . . stop resisting" you could later argue that rather than impersonating an officer you were merely requesting police assistance in subduing the individual. That assumes it really is a serious enough situation to warrant rapid police intervention such as an active shooter situation. Its likely to be recognized after the fact as a forgivable transgression necessary to obtain the few seconds of hesitation needed to show you are not a threat. Even if you do get prosecuted for impersonating an officer that might be better than getting engaged by an officer in an active shooter incident who is moving rapidly with a threat neutralization mindset.

It will, as always, however be very situation dependent.