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Thread: Common Sense Gear Selection / Mindset for Tactical Carbine Students

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    Common Sense Gear Selection / Mindset for Tactical Carbine Students

    Common Sence Gear Selection / Mindset for Fighting Rifle Students


    Recently I have seen several posts on this an other boards discussing gear selection for students that are going to be attending a Carbine / Rifle course.

    I think many students focus more on web gear selection and accessories for their rifles than on learning the skills taught in the class.

    Students take classes for several reasons. Some students take classes because they are fun, others are interested in learning new skills, others to learn how to defend themselves with a firearm, and other students attend because the skills being taught will help them in the performance of their jobs (ie. Law Enforcement, Military, etc).

    I have learned over the last decade and a half of training that gear for pistol training is fairly simple. A good gun, good sights, and a good holster.

    When it comes to rifles, things become much more complex. Maybe this is because there is so much more selection when it comes to gear and accessories. Maybe it's because the defensive role of the rifle is not well defined with many civilians (ie. in what situations and how they will deploy the rifle).

    The following are my experiences from using the carbine / rifle in training and on the job, and things I have observed while taking training classes:

    Items you may find beneficial at a carbine / rifle training class

    I have taken NUMEROUS tactical carbine and tactical pistol courses from many different traniners over the last 8 years. I have also taken a more than a few Patrol Rifle and SWAT carbine courses (over the last 9+ years). What follows are some things that I have learned in those course.

    -Use quality USA made ammo, such as Federal, Winchester, etc. Do not take surplus, Wolf, etc. to a class. One of the worst mistakes I see are shooters spending good money on training and then showing up with cheap ammo, and they have nothing but ammo realted malfunctions the entire class. An example of this is we had 4 guys that were shooting "Olympic" brand ammo, and their guns were jamming every couple of rounds the entire class, this slowed things down for the rest of us.

    -MASTER YOUR IRON SIGHTS FIRST. No doubt that optics are benificial and much faster than irons. But before you go an buy an ACOG, Aimpoint, EO Tech, or any other optic, master your iron sights FIRST. Once you have mastered the iron sights then master the optic of your choice. If you are already good to go on irons then by all means, use an optic of your liking.

    -Use quality USGI magazines with the GREEN or new Magpul followers. Another thing that I do to my magazines is use the Wolff Gunsprings 10%+ mag springs in my mags. If you have the time take the mags to the range and make sure they work good. Nothing worse then showing up to class with crappy mags and having your gun malfunction on a constant basis due to bad magazines.

    -Learn to properly clean and maintain your gun properly. I always recommend the US Army or USMC M16A2 manual to new shooters, these manuals will show you how to properly maintain and clean your AR15. On the first day of class make sure you show up with a properly cleaned and lubed carbine. Everyday after class properly field strip, clean, and lube your carbine. In most Tactical Carbine Courses you will shoot approximately 500 per day, everyday. The guys that don't properly clean and lube their carbines will be easy to spot......Their guns usually go "TITS UP" the second day of class prior to lunch. A USGI cleaning kit has everything that you need in it to properly clean, maintain, and lube your gun.....and make sure to use the chamber brush.

    -Buy a quality rifle / carbine and don't try to build one. In the classes that I have been to approximately 90%+ of the "built" guns have gone tit's up. Last year in a carbine course, the instructor took a poll. Of over 20 students, 12 or so had "built" rifles (all AR-15's) and of those 12 rifles 100% of them went tits up during the class. The rest of the guys had factory built guns and none of the factory built guns went tits up. That is not to say that I haven't seen a factory gun go tit's up, it just happens a lot less than with a gun that is built from parts from different manufacturers.

    -I always recommend having a gun that has 1,000 rounds through it prior to coming to class. If there are any problems (ie. loose gas key, etc) they will usually arise in the first 1,000 rounds. I have seen some guys show up to class with a brand new gun and put 1,000 rounds down range without a problem, and I have seen other brand new guns that have some teething problems the first day because they are brand new, but start settling down the second day. Along with this "break in" period, it also let's the shooter know what ammo and mags the gun does or doesn't like. If you shoot the first 1,000 rounds with Federal American Eagle .223 and 5 USGI mags with no problems, then take that same ammo and those same 5 magazines to the class.

    -If you have access to a second AR, take it to the class. If carbine #1 goes tit's up, you've got a back up.

    -If *you* are *new to AR's* get a SIMPLE carbine and shoot it in the class.....Many times I have seen shooters show up to a class with all kinds of crap hanging off of their guns and all those accessories give them nothing but problems. Start off with a simple carbine, attend the Carbine Course, learn how to operate your gun proficiently, then add accessories as you *need* them. When you do decide to buy accessories, buy quality gear. Buy cheap and buy twice, as the saying goes.

    -Make sure you have a good sling, my personal preference now is the outstanding Vickers sling by Blue Force gear and the new LaRue Tactical VTAC sling, but use what works best for you (single point, two point, or three point) because most likely you will be doing transition drills (transitioning from your carbine to your pistol)

    -Remember keep it simple, take a good quality, factory made AR15 rifle or carbine (and use the IRON SIGHTS if you don't know how to already), good quality USA made ammo, good quality USGI mags, a quality sling, a USGI cleaning kit, knee pads, plenty of water, and an open mind!!!



    Gear Selection for a Carbine / Rifle Class



    I often hear guys say "Fight like you train" or "Train like you will fight". Most of the time these same guys don't take their own advise.

    For example, a civilian that shows up to class with more nylon gear than most special operation forces wear. In a real world situation when is a civilian going to have the time to don all that gear and deploy his rifle?

    Outside of a situation like the '93 L.A. Riots or a Hurricane Katrina situation, generally speaking if a civilian is going to deploy his carbine, it will most likely be within the confines of his own home (home invasion or a burglary while the homeowner is at home).

    In defense of your home, when the suspect is INSIDE your house, you are not going to have time to don any web gear. You are going to grab your rifle and address the situation.

    Keeping this in mind, why not train in a class in the same manner that you would deploy your carbine in real life.

    In every training class and every match I have shot in I have learned at least one new lesson. So by wearing something to class that you would never wear in the real world, you are depriving yourself of lessons that you could have learned.


    Here is some food for thought:



    I am a big fan using the same gun / gear in training with what you will carry for a defensive situation (ie. CCW, SWAT Officer, Uniformed Patrol, Military, etc).

    If you are not going to carry your gun around on a daily basis in a tactical thigh holster, then don't wear it to training. Wear in training what you will use in real life!!!

    This also goes for carrying your spare magazines for your carbine. If you are going to carry an extra spare magazine or two in your rear support side pants pocket, or in the cargo pocket of your Old Navy cargo pants....then when you attend training, store your spare magazines in the same place.

    Don't be one of those guys that has a $500 chest rig, and will never use it in real life. Use in training what you will use in real life.

    An example of why you should train with the same gear that you will use in the real world:

    A Narcotics Sgt. that works on my Dept. went to a 3 gun match and he was watching another shooter. The shooter's AR15 had been working fine all day, then came up to a stage that required a magazine change. The shooter shot the course of fire and retreived a magazine from his support side rear pocket, inserted it into the AR15, shot and the gun jammed. The shooter cleared the jam, fired another round and the gun jammed again. This happended for several rounds and the shooter had to stop and fix his gun. After examining the gun the shooter had realized that he had a gum wrapper in his pocket and this some how got attached to the feed lip of the magazine, when the shooter inserted the mag and the first round chambered, it carried the gum wrapper into the action of the AR15, thus causing his AR15 to malfunction.


    The Sgt. told me that many times he and his crew run out of the office to go serve a small warrant and instead of wearing all his tactical gear he just wears his vest and puts an extra magazine or two in his back pocket. After seeing what happened at this match, the Sgt now makes sure that his pocket is free of any debris PRIOR to putting a magazine in his pants pocket. This is a great thing to learn in training, but would SUCK in a very bad way to have to learn when the bullets were flying both ways. In short train like you will fight.



    This is the type of lesson that you could learn in a training class or a match if you use the same gear in the class that you will use in real life. Had this shooter taken a training class using a chest rig / belt mounted mag pouch / thigh mounted mag pouch / etc, he would have never learned this lesson.

    Each piece of gear (weather it's a chest rig or a cargo pocket) has it's own specific learning curve. It's better to learn the pros and cons and the do's and don'ts in class than in a real world situaton.

    The same thing goes for cops, military, etc. Use the same gear in training that you will use at work.



    I always hear guys say "Train like you will fight", yadda, yadda, yadda. For most, it is nothing more than "lip service".

    As my father always told me "Talk is cheap" and "Actions speak louder than words"

    The reason I say this is many shooter's mindsets are in the wrong place. They show up to class with gear they would NEVER use in the real world. And most will admit that the gear they show up with, they will never use.

    There is a time and a place for uber cool gear and accessories and there is a time an place to learn lessons in training so you don't have to learn if / them when bullets are flying both ways.

    Many shooter are more worried about looking cool or justifying a purchase (guns, gear, etc) than learning to run their gun and gear in the same manner that they will use it in a real world defense situation.


    Gear selection. Selection and placement of gear is the same for pistols and rifles:


    Apply the same principals that you use for your CCW to your rifle training:

    If your CCW rig is a kydex in the waist band (IBW) holster that you wear on your strong side (for arguments sake, let's say you are right handed). So your pistol is going to be on your right side in a IBW holster and your mags are going to be on your left side.

    You take a 2 tactical pistol class where you will fire 1,500 to 2,000 rounds in two days and draw your pistol from the holster and access spare magazines from your mag pouch well in the excess of 100+ times.

    Knowing that you are going to carry daily in a strong side (right side) IBW holster, does it make any sence to show up to class wearing a Miami Vice style shoulder holster? For 2 days and thousands of rounds and countless draws from the holster, you are going to draw your pistol from the area of your left armpit and you will access your mags from the area of your right armpit (remember for the class you are wearing a Miami Vice style shoulder holster).

    There is an entirely different draw stroke, set of body mechanics, holster issues, clothing issues, reholstering, accessing magazines, etc. that go with a shoulder holster than with a strong side belt mounted IBW holster.

    Now you have spent 2 days training, your "muscle memory" has gotten to the point that you (almost without thinking) go directly to your left armpit to draw your gun (because that is where the gun sits on your body when in a shoulder holster).

    The class is finished and you put the Miami Vice sytle sholder holster in the closet and start carrying with your IBW belt mounted holster WITHOUT EVERY TRAINING WITH IT.

    The following week you find yourself at the wrong end of a deadly force encounter with a man how is intent on killing you. You need your pistol and you need it now, your body and brain go into an auto pilot like mode, you grab for your pistol under your left arm, but it's not there (but that's where it was loacated for hundreds of draw stokes in training when you were wearing your Miami Vice style shoulder holster.....but today you are wearing a strong side belt holster).....

    Then you realize "Oh shit, my pistol is located on my belt on my right side," you grab for the gun, start to draw the pistol gets caught up on your shirt (you are wearing a loose shirt because you liked the color, and because you never trained with your IBW holster you never realized that wearing loose fitting shirts could cause a problem when drawing from an IBW holster).

    Now you have lost valuable seconds, you are even more upset and more stressed than you would have been if you could have located and easily drawn your pistol immedately and "gotten into the fight". Could a situation like this cost you your life? Something to think about.

    And we all think "It can't happen to me". I was watching one of the new reality SWAT shows on TV a couple weeks ago, Texas SWAT, Dallas SWAT, or one of them. One of the SWAT cops was wearing a 6004 holster. He attempted to draw his pistol from the belt TWICE before realizing that he wasn't wearing his belt holster and his pistol was located further down on his thigh. I have admittedly made simular mistakes......It's something called a "training issue" and can happen to any of us.



    I use the analogy with the pistol and different style holsters because students can relate to them much better for some unknown reason. Take the same lessons learned with different pistol holsters and apply those lessons to a carbine and carbine related gear.


    If you are going to access your AR15 magazine from your rear left side pants pocket there is a certain learning curve involved in that (an example of this can be seen in my first post). So if you are training for self defense, doesn't it make sense to truely "Train like you will fight"?

    When wearing a chest rig in a class you are teaching yourself to access extra ammo from your chest. Is this where you will carry ammo in a real world defensive situation? If not, maybe it's time to reevaluate your mindset and the way you do things.

    If you are wearing a chest rig, it makes life easier for you in the class, but what are you teaching yourself?

    Something I learned early on in the USMC is "Comfort will get you killed".

    Don't do something just because it's easy or becasue it's comfortable. Take the phrase "Train like you will fight" to heart.

    Every evolution I have every been on where we deviate from what we have done in training, and everything goes to shit, quickly. Training the way you will fight may save your life someday.

    A gunfight is the wrong place to try to "unteach" yourself what you have already learned and attempt to replace it with a new set of skills.



    Take care and stay safe,
    Jeff

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    Good points, Jeff!

    Most folks sleep 6-8 hours per day. Unless on shift work, sleeping is done at night in skivvies (at best .) That is a quarter to a third of the day. How would you apply the principles you lay out to training for this portion of everyone's 24 hour day?
    "The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts." Justice Robert Jackson, WV St. Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

    "I don’t care how many pull ups and sit ups you can do. I care that you can move yourself across the ground with a fighting load and engage the enemy." Max Velocity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
    Most folks sleep 6-8 hours per day. Unless on shift work, sleeping is done at night in skivvies (at best .) That is a quarter to a third of the day. How would you apply the principles you lay out to training for this portion of everyone's 24 hour day?

    Do you wear your pistol on your skivvies when you are in bed the same way you wear your pistol on your belt when you are carrying concealed?

    I don't, but I do try to train for those circumstances. One of many things I found when accessing my pistol from the bed. My pistol is placed in a head board just above my head. When grabbing a Glock 34, the extended mag release was long enough for me to accidentally depress when grabbing the gun off the nightstand. Thus the mag would drop on the deck. Nice thing to find out during training, instead of a during a home invasion. How did I address the problem? Had the extended mag release cut down.


    Each person needs to evaluate their own set of circumstances. Only *you* have the answer to what will work best for *you*.

    I find that most people are more interested in looking cool among their peers than getting the most out of training and instilling skill sets that may save their lives.

    Something I have noticed time and time again and don't understand it: When it comes to pistol training, guys who train, wear the same holster / mag pouches to a class that they wear everyday when carrying concealed.

    Take that same individual and put him in a rifle / carbine class and he doesn't have the same sensible approach to learning a set of skills.

    Many guys will wear a chest rig / body armor / plate carrier / etc. in training that they will *never* have the chance to don in real life and give the excuse that they wear the gear so they don't "hold up the class". (Speaking in general terms, based on my observation during numerous classes)

    If a guy is worried about holding up the class, how hard would it be to stage a couple extra mags on the ground a few feet away from where you are shooting.

    I know a lot of guys that carry a long gun in their truck / car. Many of them have extra mags for the carbine stored in something like a Eagle Bandoleer ( http://www.eagleindustries.com/prd_d...ield=bandoleer ).

    If you carry extra mags in a Eagle Bandoleer (which would be very easy to don immedatly under stress) and your pistol in a IBW holster, wouldn't it make more sense to use the bandoleer and IBW holster in class instead of a Multi-Cam Eagle CIRAS with 12 mags on it, MICH helmet, and a drop leg tactical holster?





    I am not anti-gear. Just trying to get guys to engage their brains






    Semper Fi,
    Jeff

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    Very good read... Thank you for sharing it.

    Jay

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    Quote Originally Posted by USMC03 View Post
    If you carry extra mags in a Eagle Bandoleer (which would be very easy to don immedatly under stress) and your pistol in a IBW holster, wouldn't it make more sense to use the bandoleer and IBW holster in class instead of a Multi-Cam Eagle CIRAS with 12 mags on it, MICH helmet, and a drop leg tactical holster?
    All depends on what your training for, and what you want to get out of that particular class.....
    Protego quod vallo.
    Si vis pacem para bellum.

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    I understand perfectly the KISS principle and the "train as you fight" principle, but I also think that these can be taken to illogical literal extremes for no good reason.

    My take on it is that we train as we fight within reason. Put it this way: there are two likely scenarios in which I may use a firearm against a threat.

    1.) Hot home invasion. I jump out of bed startled by a noise, wearing flannel pajama pants and a T-shirt. My heart is thumping and I'm groggy and I have probably seconds to get my AR carbine or my Glock into play.

    2.) Aggressor will not back down or attempted mugging. I am moving off the line of force, verbalizing, attempting to de-escalate. OC spray comes into play first and then the Glock.

    Ok, now I'm in a pistol or carbine class. Now it's time to train as I would fight. How literal do we want to get now?

    USMC03, all due respect, I am not trying to stir any shit. Your points are all valid. However, I have seen some fellas rabidly insist that any type of training gear is somehow stupid and evil.

    Another example is an instructor who insists on being a minimalist for an "urban carbine" type class recommending only iron sights, carry strap and 20 round magazines carried in the back pocket. All well and good, but then this same instructor begins running through standard tac carbine drills that burn through a lot of ammo and would benefit greatly from a tac sling and something to carry all that ammo - oh, and a red dot.

    There are some instructors who need to get their curriculum sorted out first.

    Just my $.02; this kind of discussion is always good.

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    For rifle classes, I wear a chest carrier full of ammo so that I don't have to slow down the rest of the class while going back for more ammo.

    During breaks between strings, I usually insert a fresh mag into my mag holder on my belt. This is where I've trained myself to reach when my gun goes dry.

    This way I can still train like I fight even though I'm wearing a vest that I'd normally not wear in reality.

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    -Buy a quality rifle / carbine and don't try to build one. In the classes that I have been to approximately 90%+ of the "built" guns have gone tit's up. Last year in a carbine course, the instructor took a poll. Of over 20 students, 12 or so had "built" rifles (all AR-15's) and of those 12 rifles 100% of them went tits up during the class. The rest of the guys had factory built guns and none of the factory built guns went tits up. That is not to say that I haven't seen a factory gun go tit's up, it just happens a lot less than with a gun that is built from parts from different manufacturers.
    Hmmm... trust a rifle built by some $9/hour lackie (DPMS advertised assembly positions paying $8.50 last year) or one I built myself after years of experience with the system and Armorer level training?

    Hmmm.... Let me think about that one a minute

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    All depends on what your training for, and what you want to get out of that particular class.....
    I agree.

    For me a rifle would be used in two situations. One is protecting me and mine post natural disaster (16" barrel, low magnification optic, bright light). This is Florida and I'm 2 miles from the beach and 1 mile from the shittiest part of town, you do the math. The other is, given I had the time to even get to the rifle, protecting me and mine in the event that we were broken into in the middle of the night (suppressed, with a light, and a low power optic).

    In scenario one I'll have plenty of time to put on a chest rig, and could (in an extremely bad situation) potentially need more than the mag in the gun. The chest rig also has other things (pistol mags, knife, leatherman) attached that I might find useful. In scenario two I won't have time to grab anything beyond the carbine, if I need more than 28 rounds I'm ****ed anyway, and the discussion of where I stow my spare mags is kind of moot. Admittedly, it would be nice to have a spare mag in case of a malfunction, but at the distances we're talking here I'd probably be dead by the time the malfunctioning mag hit the floor.

    And frankly the real use of my rifle, in terms of what it actually gets fired for, is training and competition and again I find that having the extra ammo and tools on my person comes in very handy in those situations.

    So not everyone that shows up to a class wearing "tacticool" gear is doing so just because they saw it in a magazine. Hell, I train/compete wearing jeans, a t-shirt, my work boots, my carry holster, etc. I, and I suspect more than a few others here, HAVE thought about the effect of their training setup on their real-world environment and have adjusted accordingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nationwide View Post
    Hmmm... trust a rifle built by some $9/hour lackie (DPMS advertised assembly positions paying $8.50 last year)
    Then don't buy DPMS?

    In all seriousness though, I think that your post, Hawkeye's, and mine all have something in common; we are the exceptions to the rule. We actually have the skill-set and/or experience to know what we're using and why. Whether it be tac-gear, parts guns, or Wolf ammo.

    However, no matter how "switched on" WE all are (or think we are), we have all seen the guys at class that USMC03 is talking about. The guy with the tac-vest that covers up his pistol, the guy with the chest-rig straps that are unsecured and hang down over the grip of his pistol. The guy that bought the $500 kit from Model 1, never fired it before the first day of the class, but can't seem to figure out why it's not working right. The guy that has 12 pounds of crap on, all the tac-pants and kneepads and skateboard helmets that he thinks he needs and passes out from heat exhaustion, and then there's just the guys that have alot of nice shit but just can't shoot.

    Frankly, if someone looks at me at a class or a match in my tactical yellow visor and Eagle chest rig and $3k rifle and thinks "there's one poseur asshole" it doesn't really matter to me. I (and I suspect nationwide and I know Hawkeye) have thought out what I'm doing and why and I know that it works for me in my applications. That's really the point here, and all that matters to me.

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