Book Discussion: On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

[sadmin]

This book was recommended to me by some members here and I gave it a read over the Holiday break. I found it interesting, and overall, I would further recommend it as a good read. I'm interested to hear from you that have read, or, have any insight on some of the topics covered. There were a few questions that came to mind on some of the driving forces mentioned and whether they are applicable today, if anyone is interested . Here is the first one:

• Is the concept of “the wind of hate” a current mentality for the conflicts we are involved in; does it apply today? ( 8 years post 9.11)

I ask this because it seems that at this time the USA is for the majority, an accepting body of people, too accepting. If that holds any water, than to me, “the wind of hate” isn’t the overall mentality for our soldiers. I don’t get the feeling of distress or an overwhelming PTSD / psychological trauma when I hear/read/watch stories of firsthand accounts of modern conflict soldiers. They seem calm and although surface level, *unaffected* by their actions. Maybe its because the stories I hear involve glory someway and represent a very small sample, but I don’t see anyone that looks to be headed for a life of horrible nightmares.

• If there isn’t a hate present, and the effects of combat killing are minimal for current conflicts, what has changed in training soldiers mentally? Has media played a role in desensitizing this generation?

I have zero exp. in the military, and zero exp. in being in a fight for life. I would like to hear from anyone that has that exp. and would be willing to share a portion of their story. There were many parts of this book, that I would enjoy discussing so I welcome any additional questions.
Thanks for the time.

*I only mean that some don’t carry the same weight on them that is visible in some of the faces of those from past conflicts. I understand that there could be much more going on under the surface.*

[CarlosDJackal]

The suicide rate for the current generation of Combat Veterans have been relatively high. PTSD and BTI are very prevalent especially because of the high use of IEDs of all shapes and forms against us. Besides causing the usual battle scars and head trauma, IEDs negatively affects a Soldier's psyche versus than incoming gunfire for various reasons. Not only are these very impersonal and indiscriminate, it does not give the attacked the ability to return fire (just to name a few).

I personally believe that the increase of PTSD can be attributed to the following:

(1) Negative press coverage. The only station that seem to provide positive stories from down range is Fox News. Bombard anyone with negative stories about their very efforts and they will start sinking into depression.

(2) The current state of our society. Out society holds womanizing, drug-using, gang-banging sports and entertainment figures at a much higher regard than those who make the ultimate sacrifice. Can anyone remember any of the names of those brave souls who were killed going into one of the burning Twin Towers in an effort to try and rescue any of the victims? And yet, people remember Michael "Weirdo" Jackson and worship him and for what? You'd think that bho has ended world hunger, cured all the world's illnesses, and found a renewable source of fossil fuel by the way people speak of him and bestow him with all sorts of awards and honors.

(3) The time it take to go from a combat zone to their own home. Prior to the Korean War, it usually took weeks before Soldiers can get home. Most of that is spent on some sort of sea-going ship with the other members of their unit. This provided a way for them to decompress and "wind down".

JM2CW.

[sadmin]

Excellent points. I see where my assumptions are way off due to my lack of insight.
Thanks.
Do you think there is indeed a hatred toward the enemy that is amplified due to the cowardliness and impersonal use of IEDs?

[Ed L.]

Don't even get me started on Grossman.

His historical interpretations are way off. Much of what Grossman attributes to not wanting to hurt another human being can also be explained by the fear of getting hurt.

Take a look at a fight with people swinging at each other from out of range. Is it because they don't want to hurt the other person or because they are afraid of getting hit?

Grossman also bases many of his assertions on SLA Marshall's claims which were later found to be false.

Marshall cooked his fire ratios that asserted only 25% of soldiers fired their weapons in combat. In fact newer versions of his book have a disclaimer in the front to this effect: http://hnn.us/articles/1356.html and: http://www.americanheritage.co...89/2/1989_2_36.shtml

--One old K Company sergeant said of Marshall’s theory, “Did the SOB think we clubbed the Germans to death?”

There is a lot to be disagreed with Grossman and his conclusions.

http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SLA_Marshall/Main.htm

Grossman has actually made statements in favor of gun control on his website, though now he seems to be backpeddling.

[sadmin]

Don't even get me started on Grossman.

His historical interpretations are way off. Much of what Grossman attributes to not wanting to hurt another human being can also be explained by the fear of getting hurt.

Take a look at a fight with people swinging at each other from out of range. Is it because they don't want to hurt the other person or because they are afraid of getting hit?

Grossman also bases many of his assertions on SLA Marshall's claims which were later found to be false.

Marshall cooked his fire ratios that asserted only 25% of soldiers fired their weapons in combat. In fact newer versions of his book have a disclaimer in the front to this effect: http://hnn.us/articles/1356.html and: http://www.americanheritage.co...89/2/1989_2_36.shtml

--One old K Company sergeant said of Marshall’s theory, “Did the SOB think we clubbed the Germans to death?”

There is a lot to be disagreed with Grossman and his conclusions.

http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SLA_Marshall/Main.htm

Grossman has actually made statements in favor of gun control on his website, though now he seems to be backpeddling.

I also thought his sources were a little light, he seemed to rely heavily on Marshalls work. By heavily I mean, 90%.

[Iraq Ninja]

Not sure if we can equate the suicide rate with PTSD, at least the ones in Iraq this past year. Plus, it doesn't explain the suicides of soldiers who live a life of relative protection on a FOB.

I rarely see signs or posters put up these days for PTSD management.

On the contracting side of things, it is interesting to note that suicides are virtually unheard of. I can't think of the single case of a security contractor killing himself. PTSD yes, not never suicide. Even the PTSD is rather limited. Age may be a factor in this, along with a desire to actually be here. Those who don't like the work are free to quit and any time. Soldiers are stuck here.

As for Grossman, his next book should be called: On Kicking Ass, because that is what our military folks have been doing in the middle east. It may well due to the fact that we are not fighting Europeans, but rather a class of people that one can easily see as being inferior both socially and religiously.

[Rider79]

I've read both of his books, I liked On Combat more though. The combat breathing techniques he talks about are helpful and I think some of the stories he tells about people fighting through injuries are inspiring, like Stacy Lim of the LAPD.
What I don't like is when he starts talking about school shootings and video games. Doesn't really fit in with the books and its kinda annoying. It almost seems like a personal vendetta for him. Rockstar Games even used his name for a minor character in Grand Theft Auto: The Lost and Damned; to say the character wasn't treated nicely would be putting it mildly. I started laughing as soon as I heard the name because I knew exactly what they were getting at.

[11Bravo]

I have not read the book and have not been on a combat deployment
This will piss some off but it is my observation.
A high number of people that I know that "claim" PTSD are people that I would otherwise expect at some time end up on full disability anyway; I'll throw out the term, they're white trash.
I do believe that quite a few of them have transferred their opportunistic shamming from white trash alcoholic disability to PTSD.
Sorry, just observation.
There are really PTSD folks and the posers just make it worse in my mind.

I have also noticed a difference in who I see with/claiming PTSD by age.
Over, say, 30 at time of deployment, even seeing some hairy shit or having been wounded, they seem to do better than the younger guys.
Much better.
I do wonder how much that might be video game related.
I don't really buy into the notion that violent games leads to crime, but I do have wonder if some of the younger guys thought war would be a great adventure and didn't attribute any more real significance to it than a game.
Then they saw someone die and had the terrible epiphany of "****, Tim's dead, there is no reset. He's just dead."
I don't know.