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Thread: Cold Hammer Forged or Stainless steel?

  1. #11
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    When talking about accuracy several things need to be considered:

    -Size of the target

    -Type of ammo (match vs. ball)

    -Distance

    -Accuracy expectations

    -Type of shooting you will be doing (ie. all prone shooting at static targets, running and gunning and shooting from unconventional positions, etc.)


    There is a difference between "mechanical accuracy" and "practical accuracy". If a majority of your shooting is going to be done with 55grain standard (not match) ammo with an Aimpoint or an ACOG are you really going to be able to see that barrel "A" is capable of shooting .5" better groups than barrel "B"?

    If you're shooting 6" steel plates at 400 yards with a 10x optic and match ammo, the difference in accuracy may mean a lot more to you.

    Often times as shooters we don't keep our accuracy expectations in the context of our real shooting needs.


    I wrote this in another thread a few weeks ago (chrome lined vs. stainless). You may find it useful:


    Generally a stainless barrel will be more accurate than a Chrome-Moly-Vanadium (CMV) barrel. Not by a huge margin. One example of many, take a look at the info Molon posted in the link below. Compare the group sizes of the Noveske 16" stainless barrel (0.92" average) to the Noveske 16" N4 barrel (1.24" average): http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...f=118&t=467919 The difference is just slightly more than 1/3" (one third of an inch)

    Generally a stainless barrel will have a slightly shorter service life. Don't take this comment to the extreme.


    Generally a stainless barrel will a heavier countour and be slightly heavier than a CMV barrel.

    Weight comparisions:


    03designgroup | AR15 Upper Receiver Weight Comparisons


    Many stainless barrels come in a 1/8" twist.


    Both the 1/8" and 1/7" will shoot 52 grain - 77 grain .223 or 5.56 ammo well. 52 grain - 77 grain is what a majority of AR shooters shoot a majoirty of the time. I shoot local run and gun competition out to 425 yards on smaller than standard targets with both 1/8" and 1/7" barrels on a regular basis. Most of the time I use 55 grain Black Hills Blue Box, Feder American Eagle, Federal XM193, Winchest Q3131A, etc, and I don't have any issues if I do my part.
    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2475 (targets can be seen on page 3 .... you'll also see pics of me shooting a BCM SS410 stainless barreled upper (1/8") and a Noveske N4 mid-length (1/7") on the same page)



    You can't go wrong with either, just depends on what features are most important to you and how you plan on using the barrel.



    03designgroup | Which Carbine Is More Accurate




    Hope this helps

  2. #12
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    I agree with every thing you just said. I am looking for better than mil-spec accuracy tho. 2moa would be accepted. 4moa at 100yards would not. I am not in the military, and last time I checked Topeka was not a active war zone. I know a lot of people on here are active military, and they needs are differnt than mine. My needs go reliability, accuracy, barrel life. I don't care about corrosion resistance because I can and do clean and maintain my rifle. This rifle will be used 90% of the time on the range at steel plates and paper, so I want it to not hold ME back. It will go to a class or 2, and it will be my bang around rifle when I cut wood, camp and all that(not for people, but yotes, and other varmints). It wont be my bump in the night gun because I live in a appartment and honestly I would rather room clear with my 12gg like I was trained or my pistol.
    Are you saying most CHF barrels will shoot better than 2 moa? cause if so thats what I will go with. every bodies imput is appreciated. I do plan to use it in a SHTF situation, but thinking more of floods and looting than Red Dawn(great movie).
    I know BMC makes top line gear, thats why I chose them, mostly because I value the research you guys have put in, the money you have spent using and shooting your weapons, and the combined knowledge of the forum. This is a no BS forum and I like that. Thanks.
    Sorry, I come from the world of long range. Forgive my ignorance.

  3. #13
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    Stupid question... Why are AR barrels generally turned down under the hand guard? is this just to save weight? From the long range world that would be were I want the barrel biggest and turned down after the gas block. Is stiffness not really a problem here?
    Sorry, I come from the world of long range. Forgive my ignorance.

  4. #14
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    Going from a heavy F class rifle to a much lighter 16" carbine may be more difficult than you have considered from a practical standpoint (IMO). Lighter/shorter rifles may have the accuracy, but they are harder to shoot accurately (for me anyway).

    And I'm sure you know that optics will play a major role in the shooters ability to shoot small groups as well. Holding sub 2 MOA at 300 Yds with a 1X red dot, or even 4X is not going to be practical for most people. Getting consistent hits on a 12" gong at 300 meters is pretty easy with 4X, however - even with a 16"1x7 CL barrel and 55 grain M193 (IMI M193 in a N4 not free floated barrel my case). Forget this same setup at 400M, however; the IMI-M193 is only good for about 300M.

    One of the more accurate A/R barrels I have seen is on a friends 3-gun rifle - a stainless 18" White Oak SPR type barrel with a .223 Wylde chamber. It's a 1x8 twist, IIRC. Some NATO pressure ammo might not be safe in that chamber, however. Also, he replaces barrels every two or three years and he is not what you call a high volume shooter.

    Heavier match grade ammo should get you what you need - even in a CL NATO chambered barrel, but I suggest you go longer and heavier than a light carbine.

  5. #15
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    I have been torn between a 18" and 16" barrel. I Do want a slightly heavier barrel, that was what drew me to the stainless steel barrels from BMC. I do know that lighter guns are harder to shoot, thats why I'm not asking for tiny groups. From what I gather most any quality barrel will be around 1.5moa. so it comes down to barrel life.

    Target size-steel plates from 6" to 6"x18" out to 300 yards
    ammo- match grade 55-77 grains
    Sights- Irons to strart, then probley a low power variable
    Probley a couple thousand rounds a year tops
    Budget for complete rifle is around $1200 to maybe $1400
    Last edited by MOA; 01-13-10 at 13:53.
    Sorry, I come from the world of long range. Forgive my ignorance.

  6. #16
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    to say, "the differnce between CHF and stainless was around .25 improvement" isn't really correct as far as it goes because it doesn't take into account how the rest of the gun was built.

    stainless steel barrels are not intrinsically more accurate than CM - match grade barrels were not always made of stainless. it's just that the more accurate (match grade) barrel makers generally use stainless for this application now. and while its true that the barrel is the single most important component to accuracy, a bad build can ruin the accuracy potential of even the best barrel.

    one thing it should be mentioned is that it takes a LOT more to get a gun that is already shooting 1" down to 1/2", than it takes to get a gun that is shooting 2" down to 1 1/2".

    and the number of rounds fired before you begin to notice a decrease in accuracy is going to be significantly lower in a 1" gun than a 2" gun. it's sort of like a good gun starts good and gets worse quickly, while a bad gun starts bad and stays there...

    I'm not certain what some people mean when they quote "service life" of 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 rounds... is this the point where the barrel effectively won't shoot any more? due to extreme inaccuracy, increased headspace, or possibly gas port erosion, I don't know what, etc...?

    I suspect any barrel will continue to pass little lead and copper pills down its bore long after anyone's expectation as long as there is no standard of performance.
    never push a wrench...

  7. #17
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    5000 round service life would be great for me. i mean 5000 rounds accurately, inside of 2". I really don't think I would shoot 30000 rnds in a life time. I just don't have the kind of money or time to do that. I go to the range once a week most of the summer, twice if I'm lucky, and dry fire a lot in the winter. I am probley going to go with the CHF barreled upper from BCM. If i go stainless it will be with the 18" spr from them.
    Sorry, I come from the world of long range. Forgive my ignorance.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ra2bach View Post
    to say, "the differnce between CHF and stainless was around .25 improvement" isn't really correct as far as it goes because it doesn't take into account how the rest of the gun was built.

    stainless steel barrels are not intrinsically more accurate than CM - match grade barrels were not always made of stainless. it's just that the more accurate (match grade) barrel makers generally use stainless for this application now. and while its true that the barrel is the single most important component to accuracy, a bad build can ruin the accuracy potential of even the best barrel.

    one thing it should be mentioned is that it takes a LOT more to get a gun that is already shooting 1" down to 1/2", than it takes to get a gun that is shooting 2" down to 1 1/2".

    and the number of rounds fired before you begin to notice a decrease in accuracy is going to be significantly lower in a 1" gun than a 2" gun. it's sort of like a good gun starts good and gets worse quickly, while a bad gun starts bad and stays there...

    I'm not certain what some people mean when they quote "service life" of 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 rounds... is this the point where the barrel effectively won't shoot any more? due to extreme inaccuracy, increased headspace, or possibly gas port erosion, I don't know what, etc...?

    I suspect any barrel will continue to pass little lead and copper pills down its bore long after anyone's expectation as long as there is no standard of performance.

    Service life generally means that either the barrel no longer holds a group or the gas port has eroded to the point that it negatively affects the functionality of the weapon.


    C4

  9. #19
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    So... how might a 17-4PH barrel compare to a CHF 4150 barrel? Looking at Lothar Walther's website, the 17-4PH barrels look comparable in price to other SS barrels, and about $70-$100 more than good hammer forged barrels like those from Centurion Arms and Bravo Company. I ask because 17-4PH is thought very highly of as far as barrels go and I'm curious if the benefits are worth the extra $70-$100 for a high-volume shooter (especially in a competition setting).


    -B
    Last edited by BAC; 01-15-10 at 10:11.
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009


    "When young men seek to be like you, when lazy men resent you, when powerful men look over their shoulder at you, when cowardly men plot behind your back, when corrupt men wish you were gone and evil men want you dead . . . Only then will you have done your share." - Phil Messina

  10. #20
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    I've been lurking on this site for a week or so now and recently signed up and wanted to say Hey!

    This thread caught my eye because I'm looking for just about the same thing as MOA's wish list.

    Man, lots and lots of good info...from what appears to be knowledgeable and dedicated shooter's with lots of real world info, thanks for sharing!

    Building or buying a first AR can be somewhat intimidating with all the possible choices. Hate to spend hard earned bucks on something I don't want or need and would like to try and get it right...or mostly right the first time.

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