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Thread: "I can build a better rifle for less money!"

  1. #11
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    Given the fact that I dont have the means to mate a barrel and a upper (I know it is not that hard) I buy LMT uppers. I have been getting a complete LMT upper for $537. For that price it is hard to put anything together, especially when you figure in the cost of a barrel wrench, vice block, and headspace guages (unless you build them frequently). Lowers dont matter much to me as long as they look decent. At this time my lowers are LMT or Global Tactical. Just my 2 cents.
    "A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle."
    --George William Curtis

  2. #12
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    Hmmm lets see. You can go brand new or slightly used.

    Colt M4 1/7 14.5 GI barrel, 199.00 from JT Distributing. note, they have limited supply, and I think I got a deal. Never Used!

    Picked up some Colt M4 upper receivers for 165.00 each. Little to no use, looks new.

    Gas Tube's 15.00ish

    Charging Handles, 15.00ish

    LMT Lower Receivers, 330.00 New

    Colt and or LMT BCG, 120.00 New

    845.00....can be done. Did three of em. Also, bought some used, but not abused, Knight RAS' for 200.00 each, and 300m BUIS for 100.00 each. I also added Bushmaster front swing swivel thingies that go under the front sight assembly for 35.00 each. This brings me up to 1180.00. This is grab it and go M4, as close to spec as you can get. As far as one can see....they look absolutely brand spanking new. Again I built three of them all the same.

    One can also go LMT....my price for an complete M4 is far less expensive than a Colt, without BUIS or Hand guards/Rails.

    Love my LMTs & Colts.

    This is a great topic.....not to Hijack this one, but it would be interesting to know who has built the highest quality AR for the cheapest price. Not talking about freebie T&E stuff, I am talking about money was spent from FH to stock, new or used.

    Jim

  3. #13
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    CMT Lower, LPK, Upper, Misc. Upper Parts - Roughly $300
    Magpul CTR - $150
    LMT M16 BCG (add extractor upgrade) - $135
    SDI 16" Mid-Length Crome-Lined Barrel - $320
    Troy BUIS - $140

    Total: Around $1045

    I would much rather have this set up than a Colt where you pay a premium for a name. Not only is it roughly $455 cheaper than the 6920 but I bet I could make it just as/more reliable. Also a much better collapsible stock than the Colt. For around the same price of a 6920 you can add an Aimpoint ML3 in a LaRue mount to this setup.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
    Playing Devils Advocate:

    Totally understand wanting the F marked FSB.
    Have you ever experienced a problem w/rifle feed ramps? I haven't ever had a failure to feed that wasn't attributed to a bad magazine or improperly adjusted or worn/broken mag catch.
    Have you ever or do you ever shoot enough to even see the difference in a 4150 barrel vs. a non-4150? , I shoot a boat load and have never noticed a difference between 4140, 4150, non chrome-lining and stainless bbls other than the stainless & non chrome-lined bbls being more accurate generally. There are better barrels as in the HK416. The Noveske 17-4 is also an excellent barrel, but again I probably don't shoot well enough fast enough to ever see the difference.
    How many AR bolts have you broken in your shooting history? I've broken 7 since 1975, 3 were MP tested Colt bolts in carbines. I've never had one fail in a 20" gun. All bolts break in AR direct impingment carbines with enough rounds through them. If you haven't broken one yet you need to shoot some more and report back.
    Playing devil's advocate, or just being argumentative?

    Look, better is better. Whether or not you need better is a whole other debate, but those 4 things, plus quite a few others are contributors to the higher cost of a Colt vs. many of the other brands. What I see posted here and other places is "I can build a better rifle than the Colt for less money", so I'm curious to know what makes it better and how much it ultimately costs.

    Like I said, better is better. If someone can show me how to have better for less money I'll take it every time.

    So far the closest anyone has come to being equal quality for less money is the LMTs. I do believe that they are very, very close. I used to own one of their uppers, and besides a couple of issues I thought it was pretty good.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Playing devil's advocate, or just being argumentative?
    Devils Advocate, really.
    I see what your saying. Some believe that if they assemble a *&* rifle kit and use the cheapest lower they can find that they somehow now have an AR of Colt quality and/or their AR is properly assembled. These people are dilusional.


    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Like I said, better is better. If someone can show me how to have better for less money I'll take it every time. So far the closest anyone has come to being equal quality for less money is the LMTs. I do believe that they are very, very close. I used to own one of their uppers, and besides a couple of issues I thought it was pretty good.
    I've had good luck with LMT products. On my own LMTs I pull the barrel from the upper receiver and reassemble correctly. This is because LMT seems to not know what moly grease is nor what proper torque specs are for barrel installation.

    LMTs are great barrels. I like them and have yet to wear one out. On the other hand I have a friend who works in Federal law enforcement and sees Colt barrels outlast LMT barrels quite a bit. Like I said I don't shoot well enough, fast enough and don't push my ARs hard enough to see the difference. If I want resale value I would use Colt or Noveske barrel. If I want barrels that stand up to my use I use RRA, CMT/Stag, LMT, Wilson & even DPMS barrels that I've reamed with a Ned Christiansen 5.56mm NATO neck and throat reamer. Better is subjective.

    I can think of two other barrels that I would rather have (over Colt) if looking for a brand new 5.56mm NATO chambered chrome-lined barrel. These are BCM and Sabre Defence barrels.
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
    Chief Armorer for Corp Arms (FFL 07-08/SOT 02)

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
    I've had good luck with LMT products. On my own LMTs I pull the barrel from the upper receiver and reassemble correctly. This is because LMT seems to not know what moly grease is nor what proper torque specs are for barrel installation.
    Im glad to see thatsomeone else has had this same problem. I managed to break a GI barrel wrench on one upper and wound up having to freeze the damn thing to get the nut off. When I reassembled it I used a torque wrench and a little blob of moly grease so it was done "right".

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Im glad to see thatsomeone else has had this same problem. I managed to break a GI barrel wrench on one upper and wound up having to freeze the damn thing to get the nut off. When I reassembled it I used a torque wrench and a little blob of moly grease so it was done "right".
    I've had them so tight that I had to cut the delta ring, weld spring with bolt cutters and use a large plumbers pipe/monkey wrench to remove the barrel nut. Required because of bent and broken teeth on the LMT barrel nut. Usually I can loosen them fine with a DPMS barrel wrench, the USGI wrench isn't stable enough for LMT barrel removal.
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
    Chief Armorer for Corp Arms (FFL 07-08/SOT 02)

  8. #18
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    Interesting topic...

    I suspect that "better" often means that personal "builds" better meet the assemblers idea of what they want/need. It likely does NOT mean that they have done side-by-side endurance testing of statistically-significant sample sizes to prove that their Frankenguns are more reliable/durable/accurate than Brand C.

    If nothing else, Colt provides a benchmark standard that others can aspire to. Most will agree that an R0766, LE6921 or LE6920 will be fairly close to the M4A1, which would be the MIL-SPEC benchmark.

    Regarding cost, before the expiration of the AWB, LE6920s cost close to half what they go for today. I believe that all of the pent-up demand versus the limited supply caused by Colt's GOV commitments has raised prices significantly. There did not used to be such a significant percentage difference in the price of different ARs IIRC.

    Also, when building a la cart, "builders" need to be honest about all of the shipping costs, tools, and labor hours they invest in their "better-than" carbines. These total costs should be weighed against the NET cost of purchasing a complete Colt, from which there are carry handles, butt stocks, handguards, "Colt" magazines, side-sling swivels, and even a box that have significant value on the parts market. These parts which are often taken off and replaced with more-ergonomic or functional aftermarket versions are easily sold on the EE to those who want known quality for their KISS builds. "The sum of the parts is worth more than the whole."

    Resale value is a whole other factor. Few of us are fortunate enough to wear out our carbines. How much will your heirs get for your Frankengun versus what they might get for a genuine Colt's?

    If I am unfortunate enough to have to use a carbine in defense of my life or in defense of the life of a loved one, what might those little ol' ladies on the jury think of the errornet-forum-commemorative skull rollmark on my assault rifle that I assembled in my basement?

    I have no doubt that there are those who have sufficient experience and skills to assemble a carbine that is functionally equivalent to a Colt, LMT, or Noveske for less money, but the guys that REALLY can and do it are typically not the ones bragging about it on the errornet.

    ETA: One other factor that adds value to Colts versus others FOR ME is that I have access to factory-trained armorers and factory spare parts.

    ETA#2: IMO, installing a BCM upper on a complete Stag or LMT lower and dropping in a known quality BCG/CH does not constitute a "build" or a Frankengun and may yield comparable reliability to Brand C for less $.
    Aubrey<><

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
    I once had over 1/2 of a new shipment of Colt m4a1's disfunctional due to improper assembly...

    There was a time when Colt's QA/QC was so bad, the weps were going down so often, user confidence was nil, that at an Admirals Call (open forum with the man) a junior enlisted guy asked "what the **** is going to be done about these POS m4's that don't work".... I think this couple of years gave the SCAR program it's impetus.

    Given the choice, and that I have the tools, I'd rather just buy quality components and assemble them myself.

    You kind of hit the nail on the head. Would you rather have a guy that makes $10 bucks an hour (and doesn't give a rats ass) or someone like Steve (ADCO) Paul (BCM) or me build your weapon?? The answer seems simple to me.

    The key to building a good AR is parts selection. So let's examine some things the make a Colt a Colt (as that is the benchmark).

    Colt uses 4150 ORD or CMV barrel steel (per the TDP). Their barrels are also properly tested. They use 158 Carpenter steel for there bolts. They also heat treat and test them as well. They use M4 barrel extensions and m4 upper receivers. Their RE's are Mil-Spec and the castle nut is staked. They also use H or H2 buffers. They include a 20rd mag USGI mag (that they don't make) and a sling (no hard case). Fit/finish is not stellar, but that really isn't important IMHO.

    So now, lets examine some manufacturers that build a similar weapon for less money. The top three that come to mind are:

    BCM
    LMT
    SD

    All of these companies 4150 ORD or CMV barrel steel. Barrels and bolts are properly treated and tested. They use M4 barrel extensions and M4 upper receivers. Of these three, non of them use H or H2 buffers and SD uses non Mil-Spec RE's. All three also use F marked FSB's. Fit/finish of the BCM and LMT is equal to and most times better than Colt. SD blows all othe manufacturers out of the water in this catagory IMHO. As I said though, I don't put much weight in this aspect.

    There is no doubt that Colt's will hold their value better than then LMT, SD and BCM. The owners saved between $400-$700 in inital price though and if they do not plan on selling the weapon, this is more important than resale value.

    If you want to build a weapon that is Colt like quality without Colt like pricing, you need to know where the big boys shop. Meaning, no manufacturer makes everything in house. So the key is to find out who these companies are and get your PO's in. If you can do this, you can build a VERY nice weapon for somewhere in the $700-$800 range.




    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 03-27-07 at 15:54.

  10. #20
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    Lets take a look

    My latest build for example:

    CMMG 14.5 MOD4 A1 SOCOM Barrel $249.95
    MI Carbine length Railed FF $163
    CMT Upper Receiver $100
    LMT FA Carrier Group $130

    (Already had gas tube, PRI latched CH, and cut carry handle BUIS and Aimpoint. )

    Lower Receiver $130
    Small parts $35
    CM single stage match trigger $175
    Ergo Grip $10 *used*
    Stock w/ Milspec Receiver Extension $79.95
    H buffer upgrade $21.95

    If someone is too stupid to figure out that they can get something better for as much or less money let them buy a Colt. I don't really care. When I say the money could be better spent this way or that, I am just offering friendly advice to another gun owner. I know a lot of you guys love Colt, but my faith is in something assembled by me, rather than stranger in a factory more interested in his next smoke break than the weapon he is building. YMMV

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