"I can build a better rifle for less money!"

[Submariner]

One can save 11% off the top (federal excise tax) by purchasing a quality upper and lower separately. (Tax is due if you sell it. )

[-H-]

I once had over 1/2 of a new shipment of Colt m4a1's disfunctional due to improper assembly...

There was a time when Colt's QA/QC was so bad, the weps were going down so often, user confidence was nil, that at an Admirals Call (open forum with the man) a junior enlisted guy asked "what the **** is going to be done about these POS m4's that don't work".... I think this couple of years gave the SCAR program it's impetus.

Funny you say that. I have a very knowledgeable friend who is 45B that has 19 years in that told me some of his experiences.

Once he was telling me that there were 2 "brand ****in' new" M4's that were single shot weapons. He was curious to what could be wrong with the two which were just unpacked and had the grease cleaned off of them that day. The first one he opened up to check the carrier key and noticed right off that there was no gas tube. Easy fix.

So automatically he cracks the second one open to look for a gas tube, and confirms it is indeed present in this weapon. The carrier key is tight and properly staked so he decides to pull the gas tube out so he can pull the FSB off and inspect the gas port and FSB for any obstructions. When he pulls the hand guards off he sees that the gas tube is upside down. Easy fix.

When people praise Colt's QC and say that it's part of why the price is so high, I think of my good friend. I usually don't bring up these types of things because it turns into an all out flame fest, but since Dano brought it up and someone would have to be stupid to flame him, I can confirm what he said.

[rob_s]

Funny you say that. I have a very knowledgeable friend who is 45B that has 19 years in that told me some of his experiences.

Once he was telling me that there were 2 "brand ****in' new" M4's that were single shot weapons. He was curious to what could be wrong with the two which were just unpacked and had the grease cleaned off of them that day. The first one he opened up to check the carrier key and noticed right off that there was no gas tube. Easy fix.

So automatically he cracks the second one open to look for a gas tube, and confirms it is indeed present in this weapon. The carrier key is tight and properly staked so he decides to pull the gas tube out so he can pull the FSB off and inspect the gas port and FSB for any obstructions. When he pulls the hand guards off he sees that the gas tube is upside down. Easy fix.

When people praise Colt's QC and say that it's part of why the price is so high, I think of my good friend. I usually don't bring up these types of things because it turns into an all out flame fest, but since Dano brought it up and someone would have to be stupid to flame him, I can confirm what he said.

So in 19 years he found 2? I'd say that's a pretty damn good track record. Since whole batches of BMs have been known to appear at various agencies and refuse to run, I'd say the Colt record is even better!

[C4IGrant]

Funny you say that. I have a very knowledgeable friend who is 45B that has 19 years in that told me some of his experiences.

Once he was telling me that there were 2 "brand ****in' new" M4's that were single shot weapons. He was curious to what could be wrong with the two which were just unpacked and had the grease cleaned off of them that day. The first one he opened up to check the carrier key and noticed right off that there was no gas tube. Easy fix.

So automatically he cracks the second one open to look for a gas tube, and confirms it is indeed present in this weapon. The carrier key is tight and properly staked so he decides to pull the gas tube out so he can pull the FSB off and inspect the gas port and FSB for any obstructions. When he pulls the hand guards off he sees that the gas tube is upside down. Easy fix.

When people praise Colt's QC and say that it's part of why the price is so high, I think of my good friend. I usually don't bring up these types of things because it turns into an all out flame fest, but since Dano brought it up and someone would have to be stupid to flame him, I can confirm what he said.

No doubt that Colt puts out lemons (every company does). What you ALWAYS have to look at is the law of averages. If we took 100 Colts and 100 of a tier 3 AR manufacturer and ran them all the same, which ones do you think would be left standing at the end? My bet is always on the guns that use the best materials possible.

I will also point out that I do NOT drink the Colt kool aid (don't own a single Colt product).



C4

[Pat_Rogers]

When Bill Keyes first took over Colt, he invited me up for the day. He showed me and told me things that i never would have told Pat Rogers, including a cage containing many problamatic M4's (many, as in lots..)

Colt has many problems, most directly related to the previous owners selling thir souls to CT, Bridgeport and the unions. However, that is a done deal and will not likely change.

I have seen bad M4/M4A1's. However, when looking at percentages, it may not be that poor. (Having said that, i never want a non workable gun..)

Every manufacturer turns out good and bad guns.
I just see more poor guns (and in batches) from some makers then others.

Dean Caputo just received 3 Stag uppers with 5.56 marked barrels that actually had 223 chambers. No one is immune. No one.

[-H-]

So in 19 years he found 2? I'd say that's a pretty damn good track record. Since whole batches of BMs have been known to appear at various agencies and refuse to run, I'd say the Colt record is even better!

I had a feeling someone would read it that way. Victory for Colt! The guy's been doing this a long time. If you stick around as long as him you see everything break, and it does.

Those were the most recent examples, there are more. He told me their QC had gone off the deep end in the 90's and I asked, "Like what?" That was one of a few instances he told me about. He talked about the same thing Pat mentioned about the Union.

He is 15 - 18 years my senior I try not to ask repetitive questions as I find it annoying myself. He is very knowledgeable about these things I mostly keep my mouth shut and ask questions when appropriate.

I'm not bashing Colt, I feel that their product is not worth the price mark up. That said I personally wouldn't buy a factory AR15, from any manufacturer when I can build my own.

[jem375]

When Bill Keyes first took over Colt, he invited me up for the day. He showed me and told me things that i never would have told Pat Rogers, including a cage containing many problamatic M4's (many, as in lots..)

Colt has many problems, most directly related to the previous owners selling thir souls to CT, Bridgeport and the unions. However, that is a done deal and will not likely change.

I have seen bad M4/M4A1's. However, when looking at percentages, it may not be that poor. (Having said that, i never want a non workable gun..)

Every manufacturer turns out good and bad guns.
I just see more poor guns (and in batches) from some makers then others.

Dean Caputo just received 3 Stag uppers with 5.56 marked barrels that actually had 223 chambers. No one is immune. No one.

finally a post that actually comes right out and tells it like it is.....thanks....

[jmart]

Dean Caputo just received 3 Stag uppers with 5.56 marked barrels that actually had 223 chambers. No one is immune. No one.

Pat,

How did Dean confirm this? Did he do a chamber cast? Or did he fire some 5.56 presure ammo, pop primers, and deduce the chamber was tight? Then follow up with Ned's throat reamer and everything A-OK?

[Tang419]

I dabble in the ole Colt-Hateraid. Just get so tired of hearing about them. Some people can ruin anything for you once you hear about it over and over. I picked my M&P15 up off the shelf, and it was parked right beside one of those holy grail guns. I could have gotten that NIB Colt a lot cheaper than one might think at a wholesale price, but I just couldn't make myself do it. I have noticed there seems to be a LOT of mark up on anything with a prancing pony on it.

Maybe I made a mistake going with the M&P, since IMO mine has some sort of gas troubles, but thats why it is with Robb right now. But since my M&P came in on a S&W showcase deal, for less than the cost of a High Standard, I dont think I did TOO bad.

I do think quality is a big deal, but sometimes value goes a long way. Between the S&W and the Colt, I had a lot of $$$ leftover, to do other things with. I dont think I'll ever melt my 4140 barrel down, and if I do, there are plenty of dealers here who can hook me up with a LMT 1/7 4150 barrel, and I'll still have less in it, than if I had gotten the Colt.

[rob_s]

Ultimately Colts have some added features that the big-name players don't. Some of those features contribute to reliability (MPI bolts, staked carrier keys, etc.) and some are a matter of personal use/taste ("F" FSB, 1:7 rifling, etc.). What is a statement of fact, however, is that of the "big 4 (ABC&R) only Colt offers all of these features, and you're going to pay for something that only one manufacturer produces.

To get back to my original question, I think that for way too many people "I can build a rifle as good as a Colt for less money" really means "I can build a rifle that looks like a Colt for less money". By and large it's the little things that the ignorant buyer/builder isn't likely to ever notice in a visual inspection that make the difference.

I have an image I like for times like these.


It's up to the shooter to decide if the added features are worth the added cost to him, but making outlandish statements based on hearsay ("Colt doesn't sell to civilians!) and otherwise not properly educating oneself on current-production Colts before making that purchase is just sad.