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Thread: What criteria do you use to gauge an instructor?

  1. #1
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    What criteria do you use to gauge an instructor?

    If you're looking to take a class, what are you interested in seeing in order to gauge whether or not you'll train with that person? What things affect whether or not you would return or recommend the instructor to your friends & others. things like...

    Real-world combat/fighting experience
    Gaming experience/trophies/titles
    Ability to teach & convey concepts
    Years of experience (whether fighting, gaming, or teaching)
    Industry connections/partnerships (schwag bag?)
    Reputation
    Internet presence/drama
    Certifications (various instructor certifications like NRA, LE, Military, whatever)
    Cost



    what else?
    Last edited by rob_s; 02-01-10 at 12:13.

  2. #2
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    Here's some stuff I've written, mainly on TOS, about picking an instructor:

    There are different skillsets and knowledgebases that involve firearms. Given that firearms knowledge and skill can range anywhere from benchrest shooting with black powder rifles all the way up to the most hairy crap-your-pants combat situation you can imagine and everything in between, it becomes incredibly important for you as a training consumer to understand where the holes in your game are and how to go about addressing the holes in your game.

    If, for instance, your primary goal is learning what you need to be competent as a citizen who carries concealed on a daily basis, a course from Todd Jarrett about how to tackle IDPA stages is not going to be what you're looking for. It would be equally inappropriate to go to a team-intensive CQB course where you have to run around in a stack of dudes taking down rooms. While you can learn some valuable lessons in either course, much of it would be useless for your stated purpose. Some of it could be downright dangerous. If you try to clear a room in real life like you would run an IPSC stage, you will D-I-E. Similarly, if you try to clear a room by yourself like you would do it when there are five other guys behind you with body armor and machine guns, you will D-I-E.

    So if your goal is learning what you need for daily concealed carry and handling a situation in your daily life, who do you train with? There are a number of good options. Ken Hackathorn puts on a very practical pistol course with a LOT of good tips on mindset, preparation, and the realities of surviving the fight AND the aftermath of the fight. I would highly recommend training with him. Larry Vickers also puts on an excellent handgun course with many of the same high points. The 5 day Tactical Pistol I and II courses at the U.S. Training Center (formerly Blackwater USA) are great, in my opinion, for teaching you how to competently handle the firearm and relating the central themes that will be important to you. While several of the instructors come from Tier 1 military units, they are also well versed in the realities on the street for the average LEO and ordinary joe here in the states. While I haven't yet trained with them personally, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Paul Howe or Tiger Swan for similar courses.

    Once you've had a sufficient base level of training on the practical realities of using a handgun for serious social purposes, it would be beneficial to spend some time focused on skills courses. In other words, courses aimed at helping you learn to use the handgun in as efficient a manner as possible. This is where competition shooters can really teach you useful stuff. They can teach you how to push past your limits, how to learn to balance the desire for speed and the requirement for accuracy (because misses are unacceptable in real gunfights), and how to make every manipulation as efficient as possible. The caveat is that you have to keep your practically oriented thinking cap on so that you look at what you're being taught through the prism of being able to operate in a real world gunfight. As an example, some of the guys with competition/square range experience teach using stutter steps right before you break a shot to give you a more steady shooting platform when shooting on the move. This technique works great when you can plan where your feet are going and when you can take a shot...which is almost never when the intended target is moving and shooting back.

    The Tier 1 military units in the US have at some point brought in competition shooters to teach them how to be more efficient with their main personal weapon systems. They've done this because becoming more efficient with a handgun or an AR carbine could mean the difference between neutralizing a threat and dead teammates. They do NOT bring in the competition guys to learn gunfighting A to Z, but to build their skills in being able to put bullets into a target as efficiently as possible. While the world of competition shooting and of gunfighting are very different in many ways, when it comes down to actually taking the shot the same things are important in both arenas....trigger control, an acceptable sighting reference, and acceptable hits on the intended target.

    ...so how do you go about selecting the appropriate people to train with?

    1. Look at their background –– Look at what they've done in their past as a clue for what skillsets they may have mastered well enough to be able to teach you. Unfortunately this step isn't as simple as it seems because there are a number of people who inflate their backgrounds to make themselves more impressive. As an example, a relatively well known instructor was recently caught fibbing about his membership in the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors. The best way to tell who the real deal is and who is padding their resume is to do your homework.

    2. Look at their course reviews –– paying particular attention to the reviews from students who either A. are involved in some sort of armed profession at a high level or B. who have trained with a number of different training outfits/instructors and as such have a reasonable ability to contrast and compare. A number of reviews written up on the internet are written up by people who have VERY limited experience, and as such their reviews aren't very helpful much of the time. They may believe it was fantastic instruction...but they really don't know enough to know if it was good, exceptional, or goofy as hell. It's sometimes akin to asking a starving man to critique a meal, or asking Stevie Wonder to judge a beauty contest. That doesn't mean that relatively inexperienced students can't write a good review...I've seen some GREAT reviews by people writing about their first course....but I've also seen a lot of fanboy style reviews that weren't helpful.

    I mention course reviews for a simple reason: An instructor's background doesn't mean he knows how to teach. I've met combat hardened individuals who have survived some of the hairiest shit imaginable and performed above and beyond expectations in combat situations that couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag. Being a badass is one thing, but it doesn't help your students any if you can't teach them the skills you know. Being able to teach is a skill unto itself. By reading the reviews and looking for cues like how the instructor built the level of difficulty of the course and how he structured the drills and whether or not measured improvement was achieved, you'll be able to get a decent read on what his abilities as an instructor are. Note the repeated use of the word "measured" here. Meaning that the students were put through some sort of objective standard where an increase in performance was quantified. This is a much different phenomenon than the student simply "feeling" that they did better.

    3. Beware of goofy shit –– One of the benefits of looking at course reviews from experienced students and from people who are involved in an armed profession at a high level is that they'll be able to warn you about goofy shit...techniques, practices, or concepts that have serious flaws. These usually happen because instructors wander out of their lane, teaching things that they aren't really qualified to teach or attempting to innovate and be clever just for the sake of being different or having something named after them. Believe it or not, it happens. While there are some legitimate differences in opinion out there, there are also some objectively stupid ideas out there being pushed by some people. An example would be accuracy....if an instructor puts his students 5 yards away from three 24" x 24" steel targets and has them run El Presidente drills where any hit on steel is a good hit...well...that's some seriously goofy shit. (Been there, done that) A two foot A zone at 5 yards is a damn poor accuracy standard that requires absolutely no control from the student. If you shoot like that in a gun game you'll end up penalized for misses or DQed for hitting a no shoot. In real life you could well end up killing an innocent and spending a number of years sexually servicing your cellmate.

    4. Find good sources of information and ask questions –– if you want to know how to sort information about what works and doesn't in competition, find a forum where you can find people with vetted backgrounds who know their stuff about competition shooting. If you want to know how to sort information about what works and doesn't in combat, find a forum where you can find people with vetted backgrounds who know their stuff about combat. The right guidance from people who have more experience than you can make all the difference.

    It's possible for someone to have survived a gunfight and have not even the tiniest clue of what they are doing. Being shot or shot at doesn't result in a Highlander moment where you learn the secrets of the universe. What gunfight experience and significant research about the ins and outs of real fights does provide is a realistic grounding so that stuff that looks good on the range, but is in reality goofy as hell in the real thing, doesn't make it into the curriculum.

    I've learned valuable stuff from people who have been through hellacious fights, and stuff from people who have never been on the wrong end of a muzzle before.
    By this point I've been through a bunch of courses and I've been privileged to learn from some of the very best instructors walking the planet. When I look at a potential training opportunity I'm mainly looking at whether or not I believe the individual holding the class is teaching something I'm interested in learning. I went to Hackathorn's advanced pistol class because I kept hearing so many fantastic reports about Ken's handgun training that I was confident I would learn something. I learned a lot. I went to Langdon's pistol class mainly because I was trying to improve my skill with a handgun, and Ernie's class helped with exactly that. Etc. After figuring that out I start looking at AAR's of their courses (assuming I am dealing with an unfamiliar instructor) and I try to assess what type of students show up at the courses and what they take away. Then I start firing e-mails to various folks whom I trust asking about the trainer, his reputation, and their assessment of his prowess as a teacher and the soundness of what he teaches. Usually in doing all of that I'll get a good picture of whether or not the training experience offered is in line with my interest in taking the course.

    When I make recommendations to others I do so based on an assessment of where they are and what they need. Then I try to stick to recommending trainers that I have personal experience with or whom I know to be above reproach by reputation. I've never trained with Howe or Searcy, for instance (I'm hoping to remedy that in 2010) but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them based off of reports that I trust.
    Last edited by John_Wayne777; 02-01-10 at 08:40.

  3. #3
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    I look for standards - does the instructor set the bar high?

    M_P

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    If you're looking to take a class, what are you interested in seeing in order to gauge whether or not you'll train with that person? What things affect whether or not you would return or recommend the instructor to your friends & others. things like...

    Real-world combat/fighting experience
    Gaming experience/trophies/titles
    Ability to teach & convey concepts
    Years of experience (whether fighting, gaming, or teaching)
    Industry connections/partnerships (schwag bag?)
    Reputation
    Internet presence/drama


    what else?
    All of the real world experience doesn't amount to much if the instructor lacks the ability to instruct and convey concepts. I'd say pass on the superstars and spend your training dollars with a student of the game.

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    There #1 thing I look for is the ability to teach. A person can have all kinds of expereince, but if they cant convey the material effectively it makes learning much more difficult. Anyone can bark out drills to do on the range; but it takes a special person to actually teach.

    One thing I like to see is the teacher demonstarting the material he teaches. When I first started training, the guys at USTC (then Blackwater) impressed me by shooting every drill they asked us to do. And when they did the drills, they actually shot targets so students could see their performance; not the berm beside the target. One of the worst training expereinces I had, involved an instructor teaching a carbine course that didnt have a carbine with him, and to the best of my knowledge, never touched one over the entire weekend.


    Expereince is nice, but isnt a requirement to me. It is nice to hear when a teacher can say "this worked for me during X; this didnt work for me during Y" but it isnt a requirement for me. There are highly expereinced people out there that have spent a lot of time on a two-way range that teach stuff that I dont agree with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NCPatrolAR View Post
    One thing I like to see is the teacher demonstarting the material he teaches. When I first started training, the guys at USTC (then Blackwater) impressed me by shooting every drill they asked us to do. And when they did the drills, they actually shot targets so students could see their performance; not the berm beside the target. One of the worst training expereinces I had, involved an instructor teaching a carbine course that didnt have a carbine with him, and to the best of my knowledge, never touched one over the entire weekend.
    At the risk of hijacking my own thread...

    Interesting to hear you say this, as I have actually heard the opposite as well. I have heard students complain about instructors that "shoot too much" in their demonstrations.

    I can also say that the two best carbine courses I ever took were Randy Cain's and Louis Awerbuck's. I don't recall a carbine in Randy's hands, other than a student's from time to time to check zero or function, and the only carbine Louis carried was made of clear plastic and shot little green bullets.

    I don't really have an opinion on it either way, except for the above, but I imagine it's possible to overdo it, or over-emphasize it. If it comes across as showing off, or showing up the student, or similar then it would probably be a very bad thing.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    If you're looking to take a class, what are you interested in seeing in order to gauge whether or not you'll train with that person? What things affect whether or not you would return or recommend the instructor to your friends & others. things like...

    Real-world combat/fighting experience
    Gaming experience/trophies/titles
    Ability to teach & convey concepts
    Years of experience (whether fighting, gaming, or teaching)
    Industry connections/partnerships (schwag bag?)
    Reputation
    Internet presence/drama
    Certifications (various instructor certifications like NRA, LE, Military, whatever)
    Cost



    what else?

    Depends on what I am after. If I am after Defensive instruction, then I want an instructor that has seen combat and operated under a real world premise.

    If I am after winning 3 Gun comps, then I will seek out this type of instructor.

    I personally need the instructor to be a better shooter than me. If not, then I would question why I am there (as I know what I am doing wrong and have a shot timer to know if I am doing something too slowly).

    I also like the instuctor to demo the drills. This shows me that he can execute his own drills! It also gives me an idea of what is expected.

    Last, but not least, the instructor can be the biggest HSLD guy in the world, but if he cannot translate his learned skills into something I can understand and apply, than he is worthless to me.

    I teach basic pistol and carbine all the time. I shoot every drill, admit when I screwed somethng up, tell the students when I don't know something and freely advise them that I am average to above average shooter at best. So if I am smokin them in drills, then they know where they are in the world. If they smoke me, then they know that they are most likely an advanced shooter.


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 02-01-10 at 12:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK18Pilot View Post
    All of the real world experience doesn't amount to much if the instructor lacks the ability to instruct and convey concepts. I'd say pass on the superstars and spend your training dollars with a student of the game.
    To a certain degree, I agree with you. I also want to know if their "concepts" have ever been executed in the real world and what the end results were.

    There are instructors out there that don't give two shits if the student learned anything (just after the money). Then there are others that will spend the time to make sure that the student is "getting it" as they care.



    C4

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I have heard students complain about instructors that "shoot too much" in their demonstrations.
    I wonder who those guys (instructors) are. It seems to be the trend to fire very little or not at a target with most guys I've seen. I know the NRA (and I know all about the differences between NRA instructors and others) tells its instructors not to shoot in front of students.


    I can also say that the two best carbine courses I ever took were Randy Cain's and Louis Awerbuck's. I don't recall a carbine in Randy's hands, other than a student's from time to time to check zero or function, and the only carbine Louis carried was made of clear plastic and shot little green bullets.
    I've only done a handgun class with Randy and havent had a chance to train with Louise; so I dont know how they are at teaching rifle work. I know the class I mentioned had a lot of talking about "mindset" and the barking of a lot of drills, but very little of anything else. This was the second time I had taken the class (different instructor/same company on round 2) and it was the begining of the end of my involvement with them because the course was so bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NCPatrolAR View Post
    I wonder who those guys (instructors) are. It seems to be the trend to fire very little or not at a target with most guys I've seen. I know the NRA (and I know all about the differences between NRA instructors and others) tells its instructors not to shoot in front of students.




    I've only done a handgun class with Randy and havent had a chance to train with Louise; so I dont know how they are at teaching rifle work. I know the class I mentioned had a lot of talking about "mindset" and the barking of a lot of drills, but very little of anything else. This was the second time I had taken the class (different instructor/same company on round 2) and it was the begining of the end of my involvement with them because the course was so bad.
    I would highly recommend taking Louis Awerbucks carbine class. I haven't had the pleasure of training with Cain, but I'm sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. I really enjoyed Louis's carbine course because he really makes you think. He's a true tactician in every sense of the word. You won't shoot a ton of ammo in his class, but that's the point, he tends to stress quality over quantity.

    I'm really glad that I took a YFA carbine class before I took any others because it gave me a better understanding of deploying the weapon correctly, especially at bad breath distance with 3 dimensional moving targets. I've taken a bunch of other carbine courses from high speed low drag instructors since then, and I still look back on Louis's stuff and realize that I learned the most in that class. It didn't take four thousand rounds to teach me something new, it just took Louis explaining a tactic or technique in detail and running it on a hot range a few times until everyone got it right.

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